There’s an old model to life. You get a job that requires the majority of your waking hours, buy a big house out in the suburbs with a large garage to park your two cars, drive 30 or 60 (or more!) minutes to work, spend at or above your means, and live this lifestyle until you’re pretty much too old and worn out to continue.
However, there’s a new, competing model. You get the same job, live in a smaller place that’s right-sized for your needs, live much closer to work so that you can possibly use public transportation, walk, or bike (or at least drive a lot less), live well below your means, and live this lifestyle for 10-15 years until you can retire early or do something else perhaps more meaningful and/or enjoyable with your life. This new model is designed to afford one financial independence early enough in life so that they can enjoy it, basically customizing life to their specific desires.
Now, you’re probably already aware of all this. Old news, right?
Well, what’s perhaps newer news is something that’s less often discussed in regards to financial independence.
Once you’re financially independent, you can potentially also be geographically independent.
No Need To Live In The Same Place For Decades
The old model requires you to generally stick around for a while in one place. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing in and of itself, but there is a difference between being free and being not free.
Jobs are usually fixed to one location. And your home is certainly fixed as well. The two tie you to one general geographical area, limiting your freedom and options. You can try bouncing around to different jobs in different areas of the country or even abroad, but your opportunities to do so may be limited and every new job may hurt your future opportunities.
But this is what’s so wonderful about being financially independent – you’re no longer geographically challenged. You can potentially live wherever you want, whenever you want. I say potentially because you may be limited by other circumstances like family or other obligations, but not being responsible to your local Corporation X or whatever means you’re probably a lot more free to come and go as you please.
Imagine that. You no longer have to wake up and march down to the office, clocking in for another 8-10 hours of work that you might not completely enjoy any more. What’s then keeping you where you’re at? Where do you really want to be?
Now, I’ve lived in some nice areas. And I’ve lived in some very bad areas. But I’ve always preferred the feeling of being free to be wherever I am, rather than being somehow stuck or forced to be there. Even just knowing that you could live anywhere means you might be a lot happier staying where you’re at.
Slow Travel
I haven’t traveled much. It’s not necessarily because I don’t want to, but probably because I just haven’t gotten around to it. In addition, I’m also not much of a fan of the typical travel model as an American where you take your one week or two weeks off during the year and hit up some all-inclusive resort in another country. That’s not traveling. Getting waffles made for you by a hotel staff in Australia rather than making your own in the comfort of your own kitchen isn’t “traveling”, at least not to me.
However, I do quite like the idea of slow travel, whereby you live in a country for a year or two or however long you want and feel comfortable with. This gives you an opportunity to really get a feel for another culture. You can live in the areas that local people live, do what they do, eat what they eat, and get to experience what life is really like (to a degree) in another country.
You could live in Thailand for a year or two. Get tired of that? Somewhere else in Asia might be calling your name. Or perhaps Europe. Wouldn’t it be fun to live in Amsterdam or Prague for a year? Then it might be on to somewhere in South America. Ecuador? Columbia? Argentina? Maybe all three. Or maybe you never leave Thailand after that fisrt year or two, living there for the rest of your life. It’s all up to you.
In my mind, that’s an authentic experience. It’s not the traditional idea of travel because the traditional model doesn’t allow for it. But who wants to be traditional?
Where You’re At Right Now Might Already Be Exotic
I happen to find our country incredibly amazing. And I don’t think one has to travel the world to somehow magically be “interesting”. In the end, life is life no matter where you’re at. People in Japan right now are largely bustling to and from work, sneaking in time for dinner, trying their best to raise families, and probably not sleeping enough. Life isn’t really all that different there from what we know here. And that’s mostly true for civilizations and cultures all over the world, unless you’re talking about somewhere like Sub-Saharan Africa or something.
I sometimes forget that where I’m already at is exotic to other people. I get emails every now and again from Europeans (especially from Germany, for some reason) that ache to visit Florida on vacation. It’s incredibly exotic to them. The palm trees, constant sunshine, beaches, and great seafood is something they long for. Much the same, Munich or Berlin is very “meh” to them. Not in a bad way, but just that it’s home. Great cities, but not exotic or new.
Travel This Country?
This is why I actually have just as much a desire to slow travel here in the US. There are some amazing places right here in the US that I’ve never been to, that I’d love to see. And I’m secretly in search for the best city in the US where public transportation is plentiful, it’s clean, the weather is mild, it’s walkable, there isn’t much crime, the food is great, there are plenty of entertainment options for the occasional splurge, the urban planning/layout is intelligent and intuitive, the library system is well funded, the air is clean, the scenery is beautiful, there are plenty of parks, it’s not overly expensive, and the people have some character.
Not too picky, right?
I’ve got some ideas in mind as to where I might look if/when I’m no longer living in Sarasota. I love Sarasota, but I’m also ready for somewhere new. The world’s a big place and I wouldn’t mind seeing a chunk of it before I’m dead. Some of the cities that come to mind right off the bat – they don’t check off all the options, but enough to at least visit – are Miami Beach, Florida, Portland, Oregon, and Asheville, North Carolina.
The good news, however, is that I can eventually go and stay in any of these cities for a lengthy period – I could move there permanently, if I wanted. And not 30 years from now, but relatively soon. Moreover, I could check out many other cities and states as well. Maybe it’d be nice to live in Chicago for a year or two. Or Austin. Seattle. Nashville. When the city scene is too much there is plenty of wide-open space across much of the country away from the coasts. Or maybe we could RV it up for a while. The possibilities are almost endless.
Geographical Independence (Like Financial Independence) Is What You Make It
Like with everything in life, geographical independence is what you make it. No longer being tied down to a particular geography doesn’t mean you have to start hitting the road or anything. Being free to fly doesn’t mean you have to spread your wings. Home is where you make it and you have to be somewhere at any given moment. But just make sure it’s where you really want to be.
Like I mentioned above, being free is wonderful in and of itself. Just knowing you can go anywhere is, in my opinion, almost as wonderful as physically going anywhere. It’s the mindset. You don’t have to go, but the key to keep in mind is that you can. You could if you want to. And maybe you will. Or maybe you won’t. Financial independence really comes down to options. Flexibility and freedom is what this is all about. And geographical independence is just one of the many examples of flexibility and freedom. It’s just another reward of being financially independent.
Geographical Arbitrage
Perhaps something else that is underutilized as it pertains to attaining financial independence and geographical independence is geographical arbitrage.
If you have the skills and/or the education necessary to land a high-paying job, then it might make sense to move to a big, expensive city where the jobs pay the most. Sure, housing is expensive. And everything else probably is as well. But if you can make big money for a while, contain your housing in a major way by taking on some roommates or living really small, you can probably save up a large pile of money in a hurry. Then after five or ten years of this you can move to a smaller, less expensive city where that same pile of money goes a lot further.
I never had the opportunity to do this because my job wouldn’t have paid enough in a city like, say, San Francisco to really take advantage, but I committed my own form of geographical arbitrage by moving from Michigan to Florida back in 2009. I moved to Florida for a few key reasons:
- No state income taxes. Michigan was charging me over 4% of my income. At $40,000 in income, this is over $130 per month I was paying for the privilege of living in Michigan. At $60,000 (what I made my last full year in the auto industry), that’s 200 per month. That adds up.
- The weather was much warmer and more conducive to living without a car. I’ve always wanted to live without a car, but actually realizing it is a lot more challenging, especially with Michigan’s climate. I rode the bus in Ann Arbor one winter and it was brutal. Never again. Here in Sarasota, I don’t mind waiting for the bus so much when it’s 80 and sunny.
- Plenty of free entertainment. World-class beaches for one. But it’s also easy to enjoy the parks all year long. And I can forgo the gym membership and jog outside all year long, getting my fit on for free.
- The dealerships were actually paying more. No state income taxes and more money? Score.
- The economy was better in Florida (see #4). Michigan (specifically the Metro Detroit area) was the epicenter of all of the auto problems and I was working in the auto industry. Wrong place, wrong time.
- The cost of living was the same or even less. Apartments in Sarasota were very similarly priced to comparable cities in Michigan, or even less in some areas.
I wasn’t financially independent when I moved, but moving propelled me along the path to financial independence in a big way. As such, I can commit more geographical arbitrage later down the road when I am financially independent. For instance, it seems plausible for two to live on about $1,200/month in many cities throughout Thailand. I should be hitting that kind of dividend income within about five years. I’d be 37 years old. How about that?
Conclusion
Being financially independent may indeed unlock geographical independence as well. Whether or not you take advantage of that – or if you even want to – is really up to you, but the key is that you can. You could potentially live anywhere you want, assuming you have enough passive income to sustain yourself in another geography. London. Sydney. Vancouver. Rural Wyoming. Whatever. The world could literally be your oyster. But, in the end, you may already have all the oysters you could ever want wherever you already are.
What about you? Plan on slow travel once you’re financially independent? Or have you already found your own version of paradise? Have to stay where you’re at regardless due to family circumstances?
Thanks for reading.
Photo Credit: Idea go/FreeDigitalPhotos.net
Excellent points, Jason. I never felt the need to wander after going FIRE though. Houston suits me just fine. August is pretty hot but there is air conditioning.
Inspired by Tim Ferrris’ 4 Hour Workweek book, we took a slow travel 6 month break in the Caribbean in 2010. I was lucky enough to have sold a small business and took the opportunity to take some time out before my son was school age. Best thing I did do far and can highly recommend it. Bit tied down for a few years now but making the most of the school hols. Invested what remained of my business sale in mostly UK divi stocks (live in Cotswolds in UK) and am following a similar plan to you Jason. Huge congrats on your blog, only found it at the weekend and am hooked! I can see how much work it is and you deserve every success.
FV,
I hear you. Why wander around when you’ve already found a great place to live and be? Sometimes we think the grass is greener on the other side, and maybe it isn’t. I’d be interested in seeing some other cities and maybe finding one “perfect” place for me some day down the road, but I also don’t really feel the need to wander around.
Enjoy Houston. 🙂
Cheers!
Squodgy,
Thanks for the kind words there. Really appreciated. I pour my heart and soul into this, as the content probably shows. So I’m grateful for the support! 🙂
Would love to check out the Caribbean at some point. It seems fairly realistic to me to live in the Virgin Islands, as it’s a US territory. PR as well. You’d get that Caribbean flavor without having to worry about visas and all that.
Keep it up. You’ll be back on the road for some more slow travel before you know it.
Take care!
Kids play a huge role and influence parents decisions. I am officially retired and only 45. It is not the money but rather the kids that influence where we live.
After spending 12 years at Goldman Sachs I was glad to get out of NY but my dream of living in Islamorada, Fl and being a fly fishing instructor has to wait because things like kids education, schools, opportunity for kids ect….do impact those of us with young school aged kids.
If I did not have kids I would leave tomorrow for the Keys, Costa Rica or Carribean.
Keep up the good work Jason!!
Daniel,
I hear you there. I mentioned that in the post as something that might limit/constrain some. Though, if you have children in your mid-20s and retire early in your mid-40s, that might not be all that much of a concern. At least, it might not be for very long, until the kids are old enough to go off on their own. And a lot of families move every day for various reasons – jobs, schools, climate, etc. So it wouldn’t necessarily be impossible or all that crazy to slow travel throughout the US, giving kids an opportunity to explore new areas and what not. Maybe not easy, but not impossible.
Keep the dream alive. Islamorada sounds beautiful. I understand Jimmy Johnson lives down that way for the legendary fishing. I’m sure you’ll get there soon enough. 🙂
Take care.
Some great points and plenty of food for thought.
I have travelled around (UK) quite a bit over the past 30 yrs or so but in the end, I have come to the conclusion that what really matters is not so much the geography but the people – for me it is important to be close to family and friends. Even more so since the grandchildren came along!
diy investor,
Great point there. People matter way more than geography. Home is where the heart is, right? 🙂
Thanks for dropping by!
Best regards.
Our role in the Matrix is twofold: 1)provide labor, and 2)spend money. Both are glamorized to make them seem like the most desirable path. A tiny few figure this out before they die. An even fewer number does something about it.
Good article, Jason.
As an American who moved to Thailand at the age of 33, I can attest that it’s a fine place to live, and full of many other expats like Australians, Brits, Continental Europeans, Japanese and fellow Americans. I’ve fortunately been able to earn more out here than I was making in the USA and have been saving aggressively. Life continues to be a blessing.
Hopefully you can visit us when you make it out here, Jason. We’ll be looking forward to take you and Claudia out.
-Mike
Your fiance is on board with leaving her son to live abroad? Or would he come?
Josh,
I took the red pill a long time ago. 🙂
Cheers!
Mike,
It does seem like a blissful life over there with the great climate, good food, low cost of living, and beautiful beaches.
The only problem, in my view, is the visa situation. Border/visa runs sounds like a pain in the butt. How do you get around that??
Hope to be able to take you up on that meal some day!
Cheers.
blahblah903,
I didn’t say we were moving abroad. I said that’s a possibility a few years down the road. But Claudia’s son would be an adult by then. Actually well into adulthood. I hope he’s be able to take care of himself by then! 🙂
Take care!
I think about this a lot, earning your income online and living in a cheap location could really help to cut living expenses and save more money. I know a guy who was managing to live off of about $600-700/month in Northern Thailand. Even if it’s only for a short time it could help to start growing your investments by saving a much larger portion of your income.
I’ve lived in Australia, Thailand, Malaysia and France but I wasn’t saving any money haha. One thing about living abroad or in different places is you’ll likely want to spend more money traveling/exploring. But from my experience I think you can live on $1000-$1500/month in many developing countries. It may or may not be a bamboo hut on the beach though 😉
Much like FI and having the ability to do whatever you want each day geographical independence is great because you have the ability to be wgerever you want. While I’d love to travel I’mthe world Im not sure if its going to happen, but the US offers plenty of great locations and a wide variety of geographies to choose from. One thing I’m really looking forward to is taking some extended road trips. Theres so absolutely beautiful areas to check out and being able to take my time and not have to rush or be limited in our locations because of time. Im thinking some 1-2 month long road trips would be awesome.
Adam C,
That’s nuts, isn’t it? I once had a email conversation with someone living in Chiang Mai, and I guess he was getting by on about $600 or so per month. And not even living particularly frugally. Easy to do when rent is like $125/month.
Geographical arbitrage could be pretty interesting!
Best wishes.
JC,
Taking some extended road trips sounds good to me, bud. I hope you’re able to get there one day. Keep up the great work and you surely will. 🙂
Best regards.
I’m already in my favorite place. Things change, though, so I’m always on the lookout for a back-up location, just in case. Unfortunately, I wouldn’t be able to remain financially independent in all the places that seem appealing!
Very true, Jason. I always loved living in Florida, but variety is the spice of life! Sometimes I daydream or joke about “living in a van down by the river” a la the old SNL skit. . . Basically, converting a used van like a Ford Transit into a mobile “freedom mobile” and travel around the country to state parks and mountain bike trails, seeing the country. I hope to some day soon have that ability through financial freedom. Hopefully I am not too old or too tied down with family or other obligations to realize that dream.
DM,
Great post, something I feel lots of people in the FIRE community strive to be is geographically independent. I feel the culture of this community is conducive to traveling and the general concept of not being “tied down” in anyway, including financially, geographically, and socially.
I have considered geographic arbitrage in order to reach FI very early by moving to another country such as Thailand or Ecuador; however, like many, I don’t know if I could do this permanently considering I have all my family here in the US. One of my dreams once I am FI is to go on a road trip around the US and Canada without a specified end date, taking months or even years to complete it.
I currently reside in Portland and can say it fits nearly all the attributes of what you’d like in a city, if your in the city feel free to drop a line haha
Keep up the great writing!
Regards,
Dividend Odyssey
Debbie M,
Nothing wrong with having another place in mind for backup. 🙂
And I know what you mean there about not being necessarily FI in another locale. Being FI in Tulsa is a lot different than being FI in NYC, which kind of relates back to the point on arbitrage. Generally, the great cities are in demand, so they’re pricey. I wish I were more a fan of rural living…it’d probably be cheaper.
Cheers!
Daniel,
I know how you feel. I also crave that feeling of freedom. Just a part of my personality. I hate being tied to something or somewhere, even if I don’t plan to go anywhere. There are a lot of people that do the RV thing quite young.
I ran into this blog a long, long time ago. They RV it up and live off of dividends/investments:
http://bikininerd.typepad.com/
If you can find a way to earn just a little income that’s independent of your day job, you might be more free than you think. 🙂
Take care!
DO,
Oh, you’re over in Portland? Nice! I really want to come over at some point and check it out. I actually did a ton of research on the city and the surrounding area years ago, but decided not to move over there because of two things:
1. The weather might be a little much for me. Milder in winter than what I was used to up in Michigan, but a similar lack of sunlight. The drizzle might get old.
2. The high taxes and cost of living. I’d have less net income/savings over there due to the outrageous state income tax as well as the higher COL (relative to Michigan and here in Sarasota).
But it seems like an amazing city. From what I’ve seen in pictures, it seems like perhaps one of the most “Europeanesque” cities here in the US because of the narrow streets, public transit, and walkability.
I hear you there on not seeing living abroad as realistic, and perhaps more of just a “nice thought”. It’s something I consider from time to time for the me of 10 years from now, but I’m not sure. In the end, I’m after options. Whether I end up here in the US or abroad doesn’t really matter. What matters is that I can go anywhere. 🙂
Best wishes.
Austin TX is a great place, people there are awesome. Drawback would be the oftentimes brutal summers. Colorado Springs has great weather. So many awesome places to try out
sam22,
I’ve heard a lot of good things about Austin. But I think everyone else has as well, driving up the COL. That said, it’s on my short list of great cities to check out. I don’t think the summers would bother me too much, as they can’t be a lot worse than summers here in SW Florida. Heat doesn’t really bug me all that much.
Colorado Springs also seems really nice, with a great, laid-back vibe. The winters would be too cold for me, however.
I secretly have a fetish where I endlessly research cities – stats, demographics, climate, COL, and reviews – trying to find that “ultimate” place to live. I can spend hours looking stuff up. But I suppose that’s the great thing about the internet age; it’s like you can travel without leaving your home. 🙂
Cheers!
Hi Jason,
I think it’s funny you posted regarding relocating. I had been thinking a lot lately about relocating to a more cost effective area. Walkability seems to be a huge factor with cities in the warmer climates in the US. Places like Chicago New York and Boston have great transit, but 6 months of grey and cold…
Have you heard Miami to be any better? And in Sarasota do you find you can get most places within a 30 min bus ride?
I’m looking forward to the chance for some Slow Travel. Hopefully in the near future.
George,
I agree. It seems that it’s difficult to combine a couple of the things I treasure most when looking at a city – warm weather and robust public transit.
Miami is the best city in Florida for public transit by far. They even have several bus lines that run 24 hours per day. But there are really only a few places you could realistically live without a car in Miami. Those areas are Downtown Miami, Brickell, and Miami Beach. Miami Beach seems to be the best bet because you have the South Beach Local trolley that runs very early and late for a quarter and circles the entire south end of Miami Beach (South Beach).
Sarasota isn’t great for public transit, but if you plan your life around it you’re okay. If you live downtown you should be able to get anywhere of note within about 30 minutes. Maybe 45 minutes to the outer beaches. It takes us about an hour to get downtown by bus from where we’re at, but most of what we need on a daily basis is within walking distance.
Portland seems like a great city for public transit and overall livability. But the state taxes are high, the COL is fairly high, and the weather for 7-9 months can be gray and rainy.
Miami Beach might be the next city for me. The vibe is a little much and the COL isn’t as low as I’d like, but, as a night owl, I appreciate the bus service that runs all night as well as the fact that you can do pretty much anything at any time of day. It’s like a tiny NYC, but on the beach and with a tropical climate.
Cheers!
Adam,
Slow travel seems like the bomb! 🙂
Take care.
Thanks Jason, some really good thoughts in this piece of art! And I had to quote the first paragraph of this article to my FB page (already hitting some likes).
I like the idea to have the option to be free. Last economic crisis hit Estonia really bad (GDP fell some -15%) and a lot of people were fired. Our labour force laws are very flexible and some 20% of people were unemployer at the peak of the recession. That is why I would like to be financially independent – in case I’m being fired, I can continue my normal life and not worry about where to get money for food or rent.
Interesting that you put London as your first example of possible locations… I’d suggest anyone financially independent avoid moving to London unless you very quickly want to become un-independant 😉
It’s a great point about location being moveable and I totally agree with you that a rushed 2-week stint in a country is hardly traveling. When I’m free of the 9-5 I’d love to be able to just drift around a country at my own pace and for as long as I like, much like I was able to do back when travelling Australia right after uni. Things are lot more enjoyable when you arnt trying to cram everything into a 2 week window before having to rush home for work.
Great article Jason 🙂
I retired early to live in Thailand about a decade ago, and have been living there ever since by choice (in Bangkok). For a western couple, IMHO, I think $1200 a month to cover everything is a bit overly optimistic, depending on where you’re living and what lifestyle you want to have here.
Cities, including BKK and CM, tend to be more expensive, both for rent and other expenses. But many folks live out in the sticks (countryside) and do pay (and make do with) less. Yes, you can eat Thai street food for $1 a dish. But it’s not especially healthy or hygienic oftentimes, and for an American, a steady diet of cheap Thai street food can get old very fast. You also need to think about health insurance costs, since a lot of regular U.S. insurance won’t cover here.
But, as to the main point, I’d say a western couple could live here frugally for $2000 per month and cover everything needed. But that wouldn’t involve a lot of nightclub visits or expensive hobbies. Also, it’s worth noting, Thailand remains under military martial law, there’s increasing levels of fraud and abuse that unsuspecting tourists fall victim to, and public transit such as city-to-city buses and vans are pretty unsafe, with road carnage a regular headline due to poor policing and lax safety standards.
In general, Thailand is increasingly no longer seen as the tourist friendly, land of smiles place it once had the reputation for being. I’m OK to live here, because I married locally and it’s affordable and I know my way around and hopefully what and who and where to avoid. But if I were living in the States, I’d no longer recommend tourists to come here, unless they were savvy international traveling veterans. As for relocating permanently, you pretty much need to be age 50 or order in order to get a one-year retirement visa. Folks under 50 have a hard time getting anything more than short-term tourist visas.
There is a place about an hour and a half north of where I live right now that I would kill to be… surrounded by 46 high peaks small little town, great for being outdoors. Eventually when I am FI I will make the move up there. For the time being, not living there will really make me appreciate it when I do get there!
Hi Jason,
Spain could be a good option for one year off. Security, good level of health system, good weather, very good good, history, fiendly people, and the € going down …..
Regards from Spain 🙂
Sergio
I think geographic independence is one of the greatest aspects of financial independence! We’ll certainly be taking advantage of it because the rural area we’ll be moving to in Vermont has very few traditional jobs. We wouldn’t be able to live there if we both needed a 9 to 5. But, since we won’t be working, it’s perfect for us! Not to mention that the cost of living is lower due to the fact that there are so few jobs :).
Asheville, NC is such a beautiful place! I’ve never been to Portland, OR, but I’ve heard wonderful things about it too!
DM,
Central and South America provide some good opportunities to live cheaply as well, although many places have already been ‘discovered’ by Americans. Smaller towns offer the best value.
Another good strategy is to follow economic disruption. Indonesia and Thailand were really hard hit in 1997 making them dirt cheap. Same with Argentina in 2002-2003. I was lucky to be there just months after the currency crisis and it was cheaper than Asia. $.30 beer and $2 grand buffet cheap!
-RBD
You’ve mentioned Florida’s lack of a state income tax before, and I’ve been meaning to ask — do you pay more in sales taxes or other taxes/fees as a result? I’m wondering where the state gets its revenue from. Thanks.
I don’t know if I’ll move out of the northeast once I reach financial independence. Most of my family and friends are here which I would hate to leave. But I do hate the cold, so have thought about a move south. Maybe I’ll settle in the middle somewhere such as Virginia which is warmer but not so far from family. Only time will tell!
I was reading an article yeserday about a pitcher ( Daniel Norris) who plays for the Toronto Blue Jays and lives out of his 1978 Volkswagon van by choice, even though he makes a MLB salary. He says everything he owns is in the van, and loves the freedom to come and go and live a nomad lifestyle. Interesting story if you want to google his name.
Yet another perk to independence! I certainly have a long way to go as I’m just starting out my path (and I’m still worth a few grand less than a baby) but I feel really good about where I’m headed. Right now, I’m super happy living in Florida, but the idea of being financially free AND free to slow travel is so appealing. Travel is something I want to become a bigger part of my life, and like you I want the chance to do it slowly to really soak in the culture. I really like what you said about the US too — it is so true. Sometimes we think we need to travel far and wide in order to discover things about ourselves and others, but we have such an amazing country here to explore!
DM,
Financial independence goes together with Geographical independence, because like you mentioned Job location is one of the primary drivers of a physical location. Once you are free from a day to day job and freelancing (online writing like you), there are more options to travel and stay longer elsewhere. It is great that you are in a position to be able to do that. Looking forward to see if you are going to use the opportunity and move to some place soon. All the very best.
DM,
Geographic arbitrage is something very compelling. The thing however is that you DM are already frugal, so I have no doubt you will be fine living on $1500/month where you are. And you are correct, your location does sound exotic… Especially when compared with the brutal MW winters.
The one thing about going internationally is that you want to go to a safe place. You don’t want to be seen as the “gr1ng0” with too much cash :-). I would recommend Europe for you. Actually, your requirements pretty much describe a large number of cities in Europe. Problem for you is getting a visa to stay, the language barrier, (and possibly get Claudia to come if she is still working).
I am here on a work permit that is renewed yearly. However every 90 days I do have to check in at immigration or leave the country. However since I travel a bit for work, in practice I’ve never had to do the check in process. If I did, I’m sure my employer can do the passport run and get it accomplished without any trouble in my part.
Options for you could be an education visa since you probably wouldn’t want to incorporate a company and hire locals! Either that or come over as a tourist visa with a 90 day duration if applied at an embassy in the USA (visa on arrival is 30 days) and you can get it extended here. Anyway it’s worth coming over for a visit before thinking about moving, I had visited some 10 times (all for work) prior to actually moving out here.
Life is pretty good over here. It feels like living in the USA to me as I have my own normal routine, albeit in the heart of Bangkok. There are a few parks very close to where I live so I run and bicycle outdoors in the early morning before it gets too hot.
Hope that helps!
-Mike
This is exactly the discussion I had with myself a couple years ago. As a Canadian, the options to stay in the country, and enjoy warm weather, with lots to do at a reasonable cost were limited. Vancouver has the nicer weather, except like Seattle it rains all the time, and is expensive. My two favorite US cities are Key West and Las Vegas, but opted for Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. After a couple years living here, and definately no where near as frugal as you, I would peg my monthly living expenses at $2200 all in. There are lots to see and do here very cheaply, and if you don’t think like a tourist and more like a resident, you can live a really good life here. Think San Diego at half price.
To clarify- what I meant above is that my employer can arrange to have the passport given to immigration here in Bangkok and do the reporting on my behalf. Just a minor inconvenience.
I would never recommend people to give their passport to an agency to do a border run and stamp it without them there. That is not legal and your passport may disappear, which is not a good thing.
This has been something I’ve been thinking about a lot. Living close enough for a carless commute puts us in a really high COL area for our region. Overall it’s cheaper than living more rurally and car commuting, but not by much. The benefits are more emotional: taking a bus instead of cleaning off the car in winter, built-in exercise on the walk home.
Slow traveling sounds amazing. I’ve shortlisted places I’d like to live, even just for a month. A few are done–Central California, NYC–and even though I decided I would never settle there permanently, it was well worth trying just to find that out. If I was FI I would do a lot of trekking. There are multistate trails I’d love to explore, wandering into town whenever the mood strikes.
I *love* very rural areas (spouse does not) and yes, they’re often “cheaper” but as you know it’s a relative term. Housing prices are low, but public transportation and sidewalks are often terrible or nonexistent. My last town had one bus–literally. At 6 am it went from town to the one employer and back at 4. They often don’t plow in the winter; they salt and rely on people with plows on pickup trucks. The nearest grocery might be 20-50 miles away, requiring a car–so does the dump! Pickup services aren’t provided and you can’t get a dump permit for a bicycle. Medical emergencies require an airlift. When the power goes out (constantly) you’re last on the repair list, so you need a clean water source and/or a generator to run the well and septic.
Which is to say, don’t worry that you’re missing out for staying in civilization 😉 We were in NYC for a few years and that had other problems. Geographical arbitrage is definitely worth thinking about but the real costs are often hidden; more of an argument for experimentation and traveling and investigating firsthand instead of just researching numbers. I am optimistic that concern about walkability, food security, and strict zoning will lead to smarter town and city planning and more places that are conducive to FI living.
I like where I’m at right now. I can grow some fruit trees and have a little garden. Taking the bus to work would down me 2 hours back and forth. If I drive and pay the toll, it’s 17 minutes each way. I thought about moving closer. But I’m just a couple years away from retiring. Why pick up and start all over? Who’s going to eat the fruits from the trees that I planted for me? heheh
I live on Porto, Portugal, just having “retired” at 48. Moved the whole family from California last summer. Now is a great time to check out Europe because of the strong (and getting stronger) dollar and weak (and getting weaker) Euro. The favorable exchange rate should last for the next 4-5 years at least. You may not get such a good value for another generation.
Careful going to Thailand. Things have been going downhill the last couple of years. Prices have been skyrocketing, service declining. The last time I went to Thailand 4 months ago it was as expensive as the living in the US. The rural areas are better but not by much.
Thais have two prices on everything. One low price for Thais and a high price for foreigners. The military has taken over the government and is not releasing control. The government passed curfew on how late people can stay on the streets, they also seized all of the Thais guns by house to house searches. It looks like it is on the way to becoming a fascist regime. Relations with the US are weakening and Thailand is strengthening relations with China. Don’t spend your money in countries that dislike the US. Go to countries that like the US.
I’m going to say that Austin almost always has brutal summers. A good summer has highs over 100 degrees for only a month; a bad summer can be up to three months. The humidity varies but is generally around 50%. (Which makes it better than Houston–same temperatures but humidity is in the 90+% range).
Also, we have no beaches. Well, we have a “lake,” but it’s really a dammed-up river, used more for boating (and bat watching) than for sunning.
And yes, growth keeps driving up COL. My property taxes may eventually get too rich for my blood–one of several reasons I’m on the look-out for back-ups.
Tauri,
Glad you were able to share. And glad as well that other people liked it. 🙂
Flexibility and freedom of an employer’s whims is one of the big reasons a lot of people choose to pursue financial independence. After all, which is more secure – 50 paychecks or one? And many companies are more likely to lay off people than cut the dividend, which is why it’s great to move from the working class to the investor class.
Keep striving!
Best regards.
Cost of living in some of the countries/cities you mentioned are way higher than US e.g if you were to live in Amsterdam for a year, you would spend 3 times more on rent, food more expensive too, considering you want to be living in nicer neighborhood. Your FI income would have to be much higher to accommodate that type of living abroad, at least Western Europe and Japan.
Slow travel is a great option, but prob if you have no children.
Otherwise great articlce, keep up the good work.
ERG,
Ha. I hear that. I was just listing London as a potential idea. It’s not somewhere I’m personally interested in visiting, though I think those that are creative and willing to think outside the box could get by there on a modest income. If financial independence were just your locale and the associated cost of living, than those living in large swaths throughout the middle of the US – where it’s very cheap – would all be retiring early. Sadly, that’s not the case.
And I’m with you. I don’t see how anyone can claim they’re traveling anywhere when they’re checking somewhere out for a week. I guess if you like tourist traps and creature comforts that remind of you home then that’s the way to go. But then why even travel in the first place?
Thanks for dropping by. I’m sure you’ll get to the point to where you can travel slow at some point. 🙂
Cheers!
jfc,
Thanks for sharing the information there! Really appreciated.
As I understand it, BKK is a lot more expensive than CM. I’ve talked to a few expats via email that live up in Chiang Mai and they seem to get by pretty cheaply there. $1,200 isn’t really uncommon, from their experience. For instance, I can find accommodation right now on craigslist (hardly the most optimal resource over there) for under $200/month. That sets you down the path for pretty cheap living right off the bat.
The visa situation is the real bummer, though. I do agree with you there. The smart thing to do for someone young might either be to start right off with a triple entry visa or maybe do an education visa where they attempt to learn the local language. That would give them a year to check it out. But it seems there are a lot of people living over there that just do the visa runs for years on end. Not really my idea of a good time, but I guess you have no other choice. The Philippines is a lot more friendly to Americans in terms of visa laws, but it’s slightly more expensive, the food isn’t as good, and the infrastructure is lacking. Pros and cons wherever you go. 🙂
Thanks for dropping by!
Take care.
DY,
Nothing like some motivation there to keep you marching down the path. You’ll get there. 🙂
Cheers!
Sercagar,
Thanks for the suggestion. Who knows, maybe I’ll make it over some time! 🙂
Take care.
Mrs. FW,
Yeah, you guys are a great case study for geographical arbitrage. Make good money in one location, then retire early in a much cheaper area. And this works particularly well for those of us achieving financial independence because, as you point out, those cheaper areas tend to sometimes be cheaper because of the lack of jobs. But that isn’t a concern for those of us that don’t need (want!) a job. 🙂
Thanks for dropping by!
Best wishes.
RBD,
That’s a good strategy. Follow the currency crises. 🙂
I had an email exchange a while back with someone who lives in Cuenca. It appears to be pretty cheap down that way too, but, like you mention, it’s getting more expensive down there all the time with more Americans moving there. Still a lot cheaper than pretty much anywhere in the US, however.
Best regards!
Jim,
Yeah, I think people have this assumption that there’s no free lunch in life when it comes to state taxes, but I find that not to be the case. Our sales tax down here at the state level is the same as Michigan. But sales tax barely even affects me since groceries – the thing I spend the most money on that could be affected by sales tax – isn’t taxed. Property taxes are also very similar when comparing apples to apples (rural vs. rural or coast vs. lakeside), which is probably why rent down here is similar or cheaper than what I can get up in Michigan.
Best regards!
FF,
Well, the best thing about all of that is that you’ll have options. Being free and being not free are very different. If you stay, it’ll be because you decided to stay, not because you have to. 🙂
Cheers.
Brian,
That’s awesome! Thanks for sharing that. That’ll be a great read for one of the weekend compilations. Maybe this weekend. 🙂
Cheers.
Stephanie,
Great comment there. And don’t worry, you’ll be worth far more than a baby soon enough if you continue doing what you’re doing. 🙂
I agree with you about discovering things, both about ourselves and others. One doesn’t need to jet off to Bali or wherever to do that. Looking inside doesn’t require one to be halfway around the world. I certainly think the idea of slow travel/living abroad is very enticing and intriguing, but it’s not necessarily “better” than doing the same thing domestically. We’ve got some fantastic places to see right here at home, and people around the world long to visit those places because they’re exotic in comparison to where they’re from.
Thanks for dropping by!
Best wishes.
DGJ,
Exactly. Once you’re untethered from a job, you’re truly free. While you might already be where you want to be, the world’s a big place. Furthermore, just knowing that you could go anywhere might mean that you’re perfectly happy staying where you’re at. In the end, it’s all about flexibility an freedom. 🙂
Cheers!
DGI,
Right. My opportunities for geographical arbitrage were somewhat limited. That’s somewhat due to the industry I worked in, as car dealerships didn’t really differ a whole lot in terms of regional pay. For instance, I called on a job in Hawaii back in 2009 and it paid less than the job I ended up getting in Florida. Meanwhile, Hawaii’s COL is substantially higher, before even factoring in state income taxes. So I basically did what I could with moving to Florida, which I’m confident put me here much faster/easier than what I could have achieved back in Michigan. And now with my current situation, it’s unlikely I could live a whole lot cheaper anywhere else.
I’d definitely love to stay in Europe for an extended period of time, particularly in eastern and northern countries. Cities like Oslo, Prague, Geneva, Stockholm, and Amsterdam seem particularly beautiful and compelling. But there are a lot of places here in the US that I’d like to see as well, so we’ll see. So many cities, so little time in life. 🙂
Best regards!
Mike,
Thanks. That definitely helps. I totally forgot you work over there and what not. I can imagine the work permit eases things somewhat.
I agree that the education visa might be the easiest way to go about it in terms of hassles. The 90-day visa would be the second best option, as that gives you something like nine months in total there with extensions.
Appreciate the information. Sounds like you have a great thing going on over there in BKK. 🙂
Best wishes.
Brian,
PV looks beautiful. There are definitely some solid options down there in Mexico to get a high-quality life for much less money. And I think that’s really what geographical arbitrage is all about. Stretching those limited dollars out and maximizing your opportunities.
Vancouver seems beautiful as well. That might be one of the prettiest cities I’ve ever seen in terms of pictures/video (never actually been there). But the weather is a bummer. That PNW weather is brutal for those of us, like me, that suffer from seasonal affective disorder. I thought strongly about moving out to Portland years ago, but the weather nixed the idea. Might come around to that idea again now that my lifestyle and overall attitude are different.
Enjoy the good live down there in PV!! 🙂
Best regards.
Jana,
Yikes. You just described a nightmare to me. Grocery stores that are 50 miles away, no pickup services, septic, generators, etc. I’m not suited for rural living. That all sounds like an incredible hassle to me. 🙂
Which is to stay that financial independence is wonderful in that you can customize your life. If you want to live in an urban environment, you can. If you want to live in a rural environment, you can. There was a comment by Mrs. Frugalwoods that kind of hit home on geographical arbitrage – once you have a passive income source that’s independent of a job, you can live anywhere, even in places where jobs are hard to come by. That opens up pretty much the entire country for you.
Best of luck finding the right situation for you guys over time. 🙂
Cheers!
Vivianne,
That’s fantastic. I think it’s so wonderful to really love where you’re at. Too often we think the grass is greener on the other side, only to find out that it’s grass just like anywhere else. I, too, love where I’m at as well, but I’d also like to see a bit more of the world before I’m dead.
Best regards!
Second Half,
Oh, nice! I hope you’re loving life in Portugal. 🙂
I’m personally not ready or willing to check out Europe right now, however. But I’m not worried about currency exchange rates or anything else. The dollar goes up and goes down. I’m more concerned with getting the income to a comfortable position and making sure wherever I go next is truly perfect for a while.
Take care!
frankz,
Hmm, I guess everyone has a different opinion on all of that based on their experience and how willing they are to open their minds up to a new experience. I was just talking to a young blogger couple who lives over there and they’re having the time of their life up in Chiang Mai. Really enjoying it and spending about 25% what they were here in the US. All relative. 🙂
Best wishes!
Debbie M,
The lack of beaches would be a bit of a bummer for me, but not a deal killer. I don’t visit the beaches down here as much as I should anyway. And I’m not sure the summer heat would bother me. I can’t imagine it’s much worse than what we get here, where it’s routinely in the 90s with high humidity. Then again, heat doesn’t really bother me that much. I can’t remember ever complaining about the heat. The only thing I ever really complain – I use that word liberally – about is the constant heat. The lack of seasons/change is sometimes somewhat…boring. But I’d rather have an eternal summer than an eternal winter. Pick and choose your battles. 🙂
The high COL would be something I’d be worried about over there. It’s getting more popular all the time, which surely doesn’t bode well for future costs.
Cheers!
Anna
Right. I agree with you there. Some places, like Amsterdam, would probably be more expensive than most places here in the US. Some, like Nicaragua, Ecuador, and Thailand would be far cheaper. But I don’t think that it’s impossible to get by in a lot of places throughout the world cheaply. All really depends on how open minded you are and what you’re willing to live with/without. Like I mentioned in another comment, if one’s COL was what primarily determined their ability to become FI, there’d be a whole lot of financially independent people living in the Midwest. But that’s just not the case. There’s a lot more to it. Some people find that $5,000/month isn’t enough to get by here in Sarasota, since it’s a pretty expensive place to live, relatively speaking. I’ve obviously experienced something far different.
Thanks for dropping by!
Best regards.
Jason,
I love the term geographic arbitrage. And that is part of my retirement plan. I want to pay off my house in full by the time I retire and then in turn sell the house and downsize in a substantial way. Whether that be by size of the house we own, or by the location that we live in and or both. And thanks for the food for thought of living and renting in other locations around the world.
That is the reason that about 3 years ago I re-mortgaged to a 15 year loan. I went from an $865 a month loan payoff (with 24 or so years to go at 4.125 percent, to a 15 year loan at $996 a month loan at 3.125 percent).
Strengthening dollar really helps now, though Ecuador uses dollars. Cuenca is a nice city, I spent a few days there. Smaller and less accessible does make it cheaper. But you still have all the culture and infrastructure.
Jason,
You should live in Barcelona for a while. Rents are getting cheaper and cheaper.
Planning to go back there at some point.
Best,
Permission to stay in Thailand has become increasingly difficult in recent years. The minimum financials required for an age 50 plus retirement visa are about $2200 per month in income or $25,000 on deposit in a local bank, those rules haven’t changed. But the government has been cracking down on education/student visas due to abuse, and likewise with back to back visa exempt entries, which now are being denied. Still can do tourist visas, though, especially if issued from one’s home country. But trying to stay long term on those would take some travel, expense and effort.
As for Chiang Mai, I’m not sure exactly what $200 a month buys there or where, but I suspect it would be a considerable departure from normal western style accommodation/setting. More problematic though, is CM has a terrible seasonable problem with air pollution due to weather and the illegal burning of agricultural fields that creates a seriously unhealthy air environment in that whole region — so much so, that this past week, commercial jet flights had to be diverted because visibility for landing was unsafe due to the smoke/haze. That’s just one example.
What someone in the U.S. as a potential traveler/tourist hears or reads about Thailand oftentimes is a bit different than the knowledge and experience of someone who actually spends their life there.
The Aiki Trader,
Nice move there with the refinancing. That saved you some serious cash with the lower interest rate, plus you’ll pay it off even faster. 🙂
Best of luck making the right moves down the road in terms of where you live and what kind of lifestyle you lead. The best part about all of this is that it’s a flexible lifestyle, whereas the old model of work-sleep-work in one place for decades on end is very much the opposite of flexible.
Cheers!
skaste,
Thanks for the suggestion! May check it out someday, though that would be years in the future. It’s a very big world out there. 🙂
Best regards.
jfc,
Yeah, the retirement visa is difficult to attain over there. I think Thailand’s visa policy is one of the more unfriendly examples around, which is a shame. It’s a lot easier in many other countries, even there in SE Asia.
As far as budgets go in Chiang Mai, a simple Google search will bring up a plethora of bloggers who live over there semi-permanently, permanently, or temporarily on relatively little money. These are people that actually live over there and share what they spend. $750 for one person seems to be somewhat common, with $1,200 to $1,500 for two also being somewhat common. Seems like you could get by for less if you really wanted to, but spending $600 or $700 per person without even really trying to be frugal is pretty amazing. And the reason it’s so much cheaper over there is because your “Big Three” – housing, food, and transportation – are substantially cheaper over there. A nice house can be rented in CM for well under $500 per month. A studio apartment can be had for $200. Add in cheap food and scooter rental, and you’re getting by for little money, even factoring in border/visa runs. I’m not saying that’s a lifestyle for everyone, but there is a geographical arbitrage opportunity there for those interested.
I follow a blog of a couple that lives over there in CM and it seems like they routinely leave town during the burning season. But the good news is that that’s just an opportunity to go to a beautiful, cheap beach for a couple of months. 🙂
Cheers!
There is a lot to geographical location in terms of retirement. I just paid my taxes and lucky me, the State of California took $15k. I loved living in Nevada, no state tax. I agree, that slow travel is the way to go. Once my kids are out of the house, 5 years left for the youngest, my wife and I plan on doing just what you described. I will semi-retire and take contracts of 1-2 year assignments internationally.
I haven’t seen any anti – US sentiment here. While foreigners will always be viewed as ‘different’ to the Thai’s, there are generally welcome here. Also relations between the USA remain strong- there is the Treaty of Amity which allows Americans to open a business here with half the registered capital required relative to citizens of other countries. The king of Thailand was born in the USA (Mass.) so there have been good relations going back for some time now.
DD,
I’ve heard California can be kind of rough for taxes and COL. But it’s an in-demand state for a reason. 🙂
Sounds like a great five-year plan there. Five years will fly by!
Cheers.
A lot of people call this location independence which is popular among minimalists. I think the old model of 45+ years in the workplace is outdated. Yet this model of living is still touted as the way to go by traditional financial experts but how many of them are actually financially independent themselves?
I was treated poorly by several companies but in a way that was a gift. I have so many stories I could write about but because of these experiences I started looking for a different way to live life. Why do you think the traditional model is touted by current financial folks? Why don’t they encourage more people to be FI?
Nice post, it touches close to the heart
Geographic Independence has its benefits. There is probably no one place in the world that is perfect for everything, so location flexibility is great
Want to learn a certain skill from the world’s best teacher? Go to where they train
You need a specific type of leading edge medical care? Go to the hospital that is at the forefront of that tech
Want to become an excellent surfer or snowboarder? Follow the seasons and the terrain
We did IVF in Taiwan, partially because they do it a lot and the price was 80% off US prices
We studied Spanish in Mexico and (I) studied Mandarin in Taiwan, getting full immersion amongst native speakers
Winnie learned how to make mole from a chef in Oaxaca, Mexico, the origin of mole sauces
We plan (as much as you can plan this far in advance) to home school GCCjr. It will be great to be in Rome when learning Roman history, or Peru when studying the Incans, etc…
Great post, Jason!
My wife and I are planning to “camp around the U.S.” when we retire. There is a program that you can sign up for that costs about $500 per year. It includes unlimited park passes, all utilities, and more! You can visit any park in the U.S. and stay there for a maximum of 21 days before you must move on to the next.
Anyone with an RV can plug into electricity, use their phones for Wi-Fi, and enjoy nature for as long as they like! Not only will it be an adventure we are both looking forward to, but it will save us a ton of money. Not only will our bills be practically $0, but we won’t have to pay any property taxes and our house will be sold, meaning more dividend income in our portfolio!
I don’t think this will be our permanent solution, but it’s a great way to explore the U.S., meet some new people, and save some money!
Thanks again,
DGM
I think you are aiming for the expensive cities in Europe… I was thinking more in terms of smaller towns rather than capital cities to live in. And more in terms of Eastern Europe, rather than the expensive developed ones. For example, a lot of British expats go to Portugal or places like Bulgaria.
As for geographic purchasing parity, this is something I have experienced as well. I had an opportunity in NYC once, that paid close to what I would make in the MW. This makes me think that for some occupations, high cost cities like NYC, SF are to be avoided. Needless to say, I didn’t go to NYC. It is a nice city to visit, but not to live in as an FI person (one day).
And I am not a tax expert, but I would think that if you live abroad, your online earnings are not going to be subject to US taxation ( or rather they would be excluded for the first 80 – 90K). Your dividend income and capital gains willl be taxable however. So something else to consider if you decide to go international.
Much of what I stated are not opinions they are facts that can easily be looked up on the internet:
Thai military takes over in coup — again: http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/22/world/asia/thailand-martial-law/
U.S. Thai relations Weakening: http://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/thai-coup-alienates-us-giving-china-new-opening
Dual pricing: http://www.2pricethailand.com/
Lila,
Yeah, I’ve heard it referred to as location independence. Same thing. It’s really all about separating your income and geography. Once you can earn an income anywhere in the world, your options are wide open.
I’m not real sure why the 9-5 till 65 is touted so much. Really can’t say. But I’m doing my best to show that there’s another way, and you don’t need to earn a lot of money to walk down this other path. 🙂
Best regards!
Jeremy,
You guys are living out geographical independence over there. Awesome! 🙂
You’re right in that you can go right to the source if there’s something you’re particularly interested in. No need to pick up Rosetta Stone to learn Japanese when you can just head over to Japan.
Enjoy the good life!
Best regards.
DGM,
That sounds like a great plan over there. That’s a dream for a lot of people, but they’re bound by their day jobs. No such handcuffs exist when your income is independent of a day job or a particular geographical location.
Best of luck getting to that point. Sounds like you wouldn’t need much more than your RV, $500/year, gas money, and some cash for food. 🙂
Cheers!
DGI,
Right. I prefer cities – large cities – over rural areas or small cities. I’ve lived in both and it’s not even close for me. I’m not saying I have to live in NYC or anything, but a small town somewhere in Europe probably wouldn’t do it for me. But I wouldn’t really plan on visiting cities like Amsterdam or Prague until the dividend income has snowballed away to a level large enough to where it’s more than I can really spend wherever I happen to be at that particular time. So this would probably be in my 50s or so.
I haven’t done a lot of research on the tax situation for expats either, but I think you’re correct there on worldwide earned income. Though, I’m pretty sure the favorable dividend tax treatment would still apply, regardless of where you’re living at that particular time. So if you could get by on, say, $20k in qualified dividend income in SE Asia, you’d be in a pretty good spot.
Cheers!
frankz,
I don’t think anyone goes over to Thailand with the assumption that it will be exactly like the US. If you’re not open minded to a new culture and some differences, then I don’t see the point. That said, there are a lot of Americans living over there with no issues at all. There doesn’t appear to be any changes there. And there are a lot worse places in the world to visit or live in for an American than Thailand.
If I were to listen to all the studies and articles that discuss how financial independence in your 30s or 40s is impossible on a modest salary, I wouldn’t be here right now. If Americans, like Mike and many others, say it’s okay over there, then I’d be willing to bet it is.
Cheers!
DM,
Here’s a thought I urge you to consider, perhaps after you have reached FI and your snowball is gargantuan and you trade in your BB gun for a .22, you should keep the blog going full steam and incorporate full reviews of all the new places you move to. I’ll need a trusty idea of where to move to after I reach FI, I’m several years behind you, I’d imagine by that point you’d have tried out 4-5 new places. Just an idea!
Keep fighting the good fight
Jason O.
Interesting article with some good points. I didn’t like the comment about sub-Saharan Africa though…
You’re funny DM. I haven’t lived in the US for years. Living in Thailand I am seeing the changes, have you ever been to Thailand?? I’m saying things are going downhill and the military taking over the government needs to be watched closely as things could get nasty quick. Just because Mike over in Chang Mai hasn’t noticed any changes does not mean the changes aren’t happening.
More fun things to worry about in Thailand: Americans are having problems getting their visas renewed and many are leaving.
sources: http://asiancorrespondent.com/124798/visa-enforcement-tightens-for-tourists-and-expats-in-thailand/
&
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/741503-south-thailand-border-crossings-reports-problems-to-enter-with-60-days-tourist-visas-tr60/
Your assumption I want someplace to be like the US is wrong. I don’t or I would move back to the US. Having dated a Thai for 3+ years I am fully aware of their culture.
The heat doesn’t bug me either, until the last month or so! And that serves to make me look forward to fall, which I never have anywhere else! And I’m with you, it’s worth it to have no winter to speak of. Our autumns are subtle–the leaves turn brownish red and brownish yellow (with some brilliant exceptions). Our springs are great, though–loads of wildflowers blooming everywhere.
Housing is indeed getting pricier. Other factors in the cost of living aren’t bad, though.
I greatly enjoy reading about your research on these issues! Thanks!
Jason,
Thanks for the support!
I go back and forth on how much I want to blog post-FI, but I do have a desire to keep going and showing what the other side of things look like. It’s one thing to show the climb, and another to show what the view looks like once you reach the mountaintop. We’ll see how things go. As is, I’ve been at it for four years now, which is ancient in blog years (which are like dog years). 🙂
Best regards!
Keenan,
Can’t please everyone. 🙂
Thanks for dropping by!
Take care.
frankz,
Nobody’s arguing with you. But your viewpoint is but one of many…very many. And out of the hundreds of blogs I’ve come across of Americans who live there semi-permanently or permanently and the countless people I’ve emailed, they all have pretty good things to say about living over there. Just because one person has unfortunate things to say (and hundreds or thousands don’t) doesn’t mean that’s the same experience for everyone else.
I also wonder about your remark: “I haven’t lived in the US for years.” I say that since the credentials that you’re using to comment with hail from inside the US. That’s not the same for Mike or any others who have stopped by from Thailand. Just sayin!
Take care.
Unfortunately both of your lifestyle models are available for smaller and smaller amount of people as middle class is getting smaller all the time and soon it will dead altogether
niko,
As long as the middle class continues to buy houses twice the size they were 50 years ago and drives around cars/tanks twice as big, it’ll continue to drown under the weight of its own desire. I’m exiting the middle class by moving from the working class to the investor class, and I’ve provided a road map for others (on a modest income). Just takes a little less blaming “the man”, and a little more personal responsibility. 🙂
Best wishes.
Great inspirational post!
I’ve recently discovered blogs of some people who RV full time here in America, mostly the western US, who get by on about $500 a month.
Found them by watching a documentary on YouTube called Without Bound, pretty cool if you want to check it out. My favorite guy is Randy, a modern day renaissance man in the mold of Thoreau.
I like that the RV crowd blends frugality with minimalism both to the next level.
Lots of options and levels of FI out there, you just have to figure out which one is for you and then make it happen.
Sundeep,
That’s a great documentary! I actually watched it last year and linked to it here:
http://www.dividendmantra.com/2014/12/weekend-reading-december-20-2014/
I agree that Randy really has it figured out. They all do, really. I don’t know if that’d be the lifestyle for me, but I think something similar could be accomplished without having to RV it up. One could become FI and easily rent cheap apartments via craigslist or Airbnb, checking out new areas every few months or years. A lot of ways to skin a cat, which is what’s so wonderful about being financially independent. The flexibility is off the charts. 🙂
Best wishes!
Awesome that you recommended it. I’m glad you mentioned that as I’ve been racking my brain wondering how I stumbled upon that documentary recently, it must have been from you!
I’m torn myself in being able to make that much of a leap, but nice to know it’s an option.
I am on board with you regarding renting over buying for ultimate location flexibility however I just recently had a big wrench thrown into that idea as my rent just went up $300 and finding something comparable in the same location would also now be about the same higher level (previously lucked out with my landlord not raising my rent at all for five years).
So that’s something to consider with rentals, rent inflation. Something you wouldn’t have with a locked in mortgage.
Always pros and cons. Stable rent in the same location. Variable rents but geographic independence. Basically everything you just said in your reply. 🙂
I value flexibility more like yourself. Freedom of choice is number one!
Sundeep,
Sorry to hear about the rent getting jacked up on you. That’s something I’ve not yet really experienced – my rent is essentially unchanged over the last few years. But it sounds like you’ve done pretty well over the last five years with no rent increases, so that’s something you average out. In addition, the great thing about renting is that you can just go somewhere else. Owning, however, isn’t exactly “locking in” your costs. Property taxes, insurance, maintenance, and repairs all go up over time, which is a prime reason rents will go up over time as well. One of the comments above touched on the possibility of property taxes going up too much to stay in a particular location. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to completely hedge one’s place of residence against inflation, as the costs of just about everything go up over time.
Best regards!
DM,
I am hoping for the opportunity to work in different states at some point in my career. The problem with the tech. industry is that you have to keep your skills current at all times and it might be hard to find a job in some parts of the US. For example if I wanted to move to N.H. it would probably be hard for me to find a job because of it being so remote in some areas. My end goal would definitely be to eventually work for myself like you have achieved. I am leaning towards getting into income properties at some point and living off of that income. This is of course going to require a ton of work and research. I just need to be patient and play my cards right. Thanks for providing this insightful article.
DM,
Well, I hope you’re able to get to that position at some point. It’d be great to be able to work for yourself, which would allow you to live pretty much anywhere you want. But even if you never get to that position, you’re on the path to financial independence which allows for the same thing. One way or another… 🙂
Best regards.
Congratulations. I ‘m loving his site . I am Brazilian and I state trying to achieve my financial independence and this site is helping me in this. And still helps me learn the English language . Thank U
Edgar,
Thanks so much. Appreciate that. Really glad you’re enjoying the site! 🙂
I hope your journey to financial independence is proving to be just as fruitful as mine, if not more so. And best of luck learning English as you go.
Take care!
Of course that makes me think – again – about my RV trip coming! 😉 We’ll start crossing Canada from East to West and going down the US up to southern countries like Costa Rica. Should be a lot of fun and lifetime experiences! Then, we’ll come back by the US East coast.
Yes, financial independence also implies geographical independence to me. The moment I’ll live from my online business and my dividend income, there’s no need for us to stay in the same place for decades. I have a long list of countries I’d like to slow travel in! 🙂
Maybe we will cross paths sometimes!
Cheers!
Mike
Mike,
That’s really a fantastic situation to be in. I think a good chunk of people out there would love to be able to slow travel or take one extended road trip around the country for a few years, but so few lack that kind of flexibility/freedom.
Maybe we will cross paths some day. You never know! 🙂
Best regards.
Inspiring read – I love the thought of Geographical arbitrage! My family is also from Michigan (Ypsilanti) and we decided to move several years ago to NC. The cost of living was so much better there and plus the climate allows us not to spend as much on our home and utilities.
BTW – Asheville is a wonderful place – very similar to living in Ann Arbor. We don’t live there but are within driving distance and have visited many times.
John,
Ahh, Ypsi! Sounds like you’ve moved on to greener pastures, literally and figuratively. 🙂
Thanks for the perspective on Asheville. I’ve heard similar things about the town, since it shares that kind of liberal/weird/progressive vibe that A2 has. I really happen to like that vibe. I hope to check it out some day. Portland is really high on my list for similar reasons.
Thanks for dropping by!
Best regards.
Hi Jason
Thanks so much for sharing this, it has changed my thinking. What an awesome gift to share! I’m not one to get too deep into the whole philosophical side of things, but changing your thinking is an incredibly powerful thing to do. My whole world has literally changed just by the power of a thought.
Let me ask you, has your thinking changed since becoming your own boss? For me, that is the most attractive part of financial independence. I remember a few years ago when I was traveling through south east asia on the CHEAP, it was the best time of my life. On the outside, it didn’t look like it though. I didn’t have the fancy gadgets, the toys or all the other trappings that come with a middle class western lifestyle. In fact I was living a very poverty lifestyle.
What I did have though was TIME and FREEDOM. Combining the two makes for an amazing life. I was able to read, let the thoughts in my head really take root and then have the time to allow the thoughts to play out and come to their full bloom. Truly wonderful times, and I can’t wait to be in this position to do this again permanently.
One of the biggest downsides of a 9-5 lifestyle, in my view anyway, is that your thoughts aren’t your own. The boss owns them. Your friends own them. Society’s expectations own them. Everyone but you owns them!
Anyway, I am moving along the spectrum as you say. I have never thought of it this way, so thank you for sharing that and allowing me to change my way of thinking.
Cheers
DK
DK,
Absolutely. My entire life has changed since I quit my full-time job last May. It’s been truly amazing in so many ways. I took a good look back on things one year later here:
http://www.dividendmantra.com/2015/05/quitting-my-full-time-job-one-year-later/
But owning your own time is what it’s all about. I can’t imagine wanting to own anything more than my own time. It’s the ultimate asset. 🙂
I’d love to hear more about your time in SE Asia. There was a time, many years ago, when I was *this* close to moving to Thailand. I still think about that from time to time. Great food, great people, great scenery, great beaches, great climate, and super cheap. Maybe I’ll still find myself out that way at some point.
Keep moving along the spectrum over there!!
Best wishes.