Destination: Grand Rapids

Grand Rapids 028This past Friday was just plain awesome!

So last week I called my oldest sister and asked her if I could come out for the weekend to spend a little time and have some fun. Of course, she was excited and we made plans for me to drive the ~2 hours out to her house; she lives on the west side of Michigan, near Lake Michigan.

And while I was excited just to spend the weekend with her and her husband, this gave me an excellent opportunity to spend some time in Grand Rapids, as I had to pass through it on the way to her house.

Grand Rapids is a beacon of economic strength and urban culture in West Michigan, and is home to the largest urban core in the state outside of Detroit. Fortunately, Grand Rapids is a wonderfully clean and healthy city, whereas Detroit is in a constant state of decline and decay.

So I’ll come out and admit that I’m a big fan of cities. It’s an admiration and love that goes slightly against some of my core goals of early retirement/financial independence, and I say that only because they’re typically more expensive than rural areas.

And while you might be able to rationalize living in a bigger, expensive city because you have a job that pays well and/or you’re able to circumvent the costs of owning an automobile through the use of public transportation, I probably won’t be able to claim such victories. If I’m able to continue writing for a living then I could do that anywhere. And it would be tough to forgo a car up here due to my family and friends being spread out across the state. I might be able to get by within a city with no car, but regular car rentals to go visit family would quickly eat up any savings I might see from not owning a vehicle.

Well, I left early Friday morning to allow myself time to detour through Grand Rapids. My sister doesn’t get home from work until 6:30 p.m., so I allowed myself about five hours of fun and exploration in GR.

And since I knew I’d have some time in the city and I also knew a fellow blogger, Kipp from Frankly Frugal Finance, lived in the area, I shot him an email to see if he’d like to meet up over lunch.

We met up at a local institution, Yesterdog, for hot dogs and a chat. I opted for one Ultradog – chili, cheese, ketchup, mustard, onions, and pickles. With a Pepsi to wash it down. Yum! It was no Detroit-style Coney Dog, but it definitely hit the spot.

Grand Rapids 004

Kipp and I chatted for a couple of hours about investing, frugality, and seeking freedom. It’s always wonderful to meet and chat with like-minded individuals. I even got lucky, because we stayed for quite a while. And I forgot about the parking meter. See, I’m not used to parking meters and paying for parking. Luckily, the meter I pulled up to had more than 50 minutes on the clock, so my parking was free. And it gets better: The meter had long expired by the time I got back to my car, yet I had no ticket waiting for me. Which was nice, because there was a parking enforcer roaming the lot just after I initially parked. Good timing on my part.

After Kipp and I went our separate ways I decided to do some urban exploring. I took my camera with me to get some shots of GR and give you all a feel for one of the best cities in Michigan. And I did this for selfish reasons as well. I’m still deciding where I’m going to settle down and complete my journey to financial independence. I’m renting a room from my sister right now, and while it’s wonderful it’s also temporary. I think my choice is really between two cities: Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor, as these are, in my opinion, by far the two best cities in Michigan with any type of urban core, walkability, and general high quality of life.

The great thing is that urban exploring like this is free. It costs nothing to walk the city, do some people watching, and admire the cityscape and architecture. I often mention that I naturally enjoy activities that are either free or low-cost, and this is a great example of spending an entire Friday afternoon for almost free (other than a small parking fee and the food and drink I purchased).

Today we’ll be looking at Grand Rapids through the lens of the pictures I took as I guide you guys through. I’ll be weighing the pros and cons of living here, and later will do the same with Ann Arbor once I have the chance to explore and take pictures in the same manner.

So after finding a parking spot downtown I had to contend with parking meters for the first time in quite a while. I had a few dimes left over as change from lunch, but not enough to buy myself enough meter time to explore the city. The good news is that there’s an automated phone number you can call to pay for parking via a credit card. The bad news is that it took 20 minutes to set an account up and it still didn’t work. So I found a parking garage across the street. Parked my car. Walked back to the parking meter area only to find parking enforcers bagging the meters because an event was going on in downtown, rendering parking free for the night. Back to my car I went, paid the $1.00 to exit the garage, and parked for free along the street. Score again!

I walked along the street to take a picture of La Grande Vitesse, but since there was an aforementioned event going on with signups located around the sculpture, the pictures unfortunately did not turn out well.

I continued on and found myself near the Grand Rapids Art Museum (GRAM to locals), the world’s first LEED certified art museum.

Grand Rapids 009

It’s a really beautiful building located right behind (or in front of, depending on your point of view) Rosa Parks Circle, which is a small plaza that hosts concerts in the summer and ice skating in the winter.

I continued on and walked one of the bridges that crosses the Grand River, where there was once a set of rapids (which the city is named after). I found the Grand Rapids Public Museum, which has some really great exhibits along with a planetarium.

Grand Rapids 014

I then crossed all the way across to the other side of the river to get a great shot of the skyline from Ah-Nab-Awen Park, which resulted in the picture you see at the beginning of the article. I personally think the skyline of Grand Rapids is by far the best in all of Michigan.

Swinging back across the bridge, I decided to get out of the hot summer sun and duck into the library. Now, no self-respecting frugalist would not know where the library is, so I had already located it before I set off across town. It was then just a matter of finding the streets and getting inside once I was back across the river.

Grand Rapids 031

That picture doesn’t actually do it justice, as it’s really quite big inside; it’s one of the biggest libraries I’ve ever been in. In addition, it’s really beautiful inside and out, from all angles. I was pleased to see they had multiple copies of some of my favorite books, like “The Snowball: Warren Buffett and the Business of Life”. For anyone not in the know, that’s Warren Buffett’s biography. I’ve recommended it for reading for those just starting out. It’s a long, but wonderful read.

I spent probably an hour in here perusing their selection of books and getting the lay of the land. I generally find myself quite comfortable in a library, and this was a highlight of the late afternoon.

After exiting refreshed and less sweaty I realized the Grand Rapids Civic Theater was located just a block away.

 

Grand Rapids 033

This is a really beautiful theater, and it appears that after checking their schedule and some reviews they put on some really fantastic performances. I haven’t been to live theater since my college days, but I’d love to go again at some point. There’s something really magical and visceral about it, in my opinion. Not a particularly frugal night on the town as some of the shows can be moderately expensive, but an occasional splurge is okay.

After leaving this area and hitting one of the main east-west cross streets, Fulton Street, I found myself sitting across the block from Van Andel Arena, which is where the Grand Rapids Griffins, a professional hockey team in the AHL, play. They also routinely host events and concerts. It has the capacity for up to just over 13,000 people.

Grand Rapids 036

The great thing about going to a Griffins game – I’ve been to a few – is that the tickets and food are way cheaper than going to a Red Wings game in Detroit. And the entertainment is just about the same, as the team is an affiliate to the Wings. I find the value proposition much better with watching pro affiliate teams, like the West Michigan Whitecaps, a baseball team that’s an affiliate to the Detroit Tigers. They also play in the area.

I took one last picture before leaving downtown for good, just to give you readers an idea of the architecture within downtown. The following is a shot of Ionia Ave SW, looking south.

Grand Rapids 037

The architecture is really just beautiful, and I guess I just have an appreciation for that kind of stuff. What’s really amazing to me is how clean the downtown area is kept. I don’t think I encountered one iota of trash anywhere on the streets. In addition, the entire area was bustling with people all over. The pictures may make it look like the town is dead, but I purposely timed my pictures to avoid capturing any unsuspecting faces.

I actually hopped just a block over from Ionia to grab a pretty decent sandwich from Two Beards Deli. I ate it too fast to take a picture, though. Urban exploring makes me hungry!

So there you have it. A small piece of Grand Rapids viewed through the camera lens of an afternoon of urban exploration. It should be noted, however, that Grand Rapids is a pretty big city, and is also quite spread out. The downtown core is large, urban, and vibrant. However, it’s just a small part of an otherwise fairly large city.

Some vital stats:

  • Population: 188,040 as of 2010
  • Size: 45.27 square miles
  • Average high in January: 30.7 degrees Fahrenheit
  • Average high in July: 82.8 degrees Fahrenheit

Looking at the city through the lens of someone who’s aiming to become financially independent by 40, and as such appreciates frugality to a strong degree, there are numerous pros and cons to the city. I’ll try to be brief and lay out what I think are the most compelling cases both for and against living here from my perspective:

Pros:

  • Dense urban core suitable for walkability/bicycling. Average citywide walkscore of 48. Central downtown score of 97.
  • Plenty of free activities, including parks, sightseeing, occasional free museum days, biking, farmers’ markets, the library, and the fantastic ArtPrize.
  • Lots of activities that aren’t free, but fun and generally low cost, including a zoo, a comedy club, sporting events, theater, museums, symphony, Frederik Meijer Gardens, and a plethora of excellent unique dining choices.
  • Housing is cheap. Decent starter single-family homes in acceptable areas start around $60,000. You can buy a downtown condo for $120k and up. Since I’m comparing to Ann Arbor, acceptable SFHs start at around $125,000 and downtown condos run ~$250k and up in A2. From my research, housing is on average about 50% cheaper in Grand Rapids, which seems to jive well with a number of calculators out there that compare cost of living between cities. However, the spread seems to be a bit more narrow when comparing apples-to-apples rentals. Two bedroom apartments in nice areas of GR near downtown can be had for $700 and up, whereas A2 two bedroom rentals anywhere near the city core seem to be closer to $1,000 and up. It’s tough to get an exact comparison, though, as it seems A2 apartments are generally smaller. But smaller can be a good thing.
  • Close to the fantastic beaches along Lake Michigan and some of the great beach towns, like Grand Haven.
  • Plenty of reasonably priced loft apartments and condos downtown, which is a dream housing situation for me. These usually feature huge windows, concrete and/or wood flooring, exposed beams and ducts, and industrial features. Many were originally furniture factories, as that was a huge industry for this city many years ago. These actually aren’t as common as you would think up here in Michigan, and in most cities are very expensive.
  • Lonely Planet’s #1 US travel destination for 2014.
  • The city is growing and becoming better every single day. There’s a lot of private funding in the city, and the community pride is obvious.
  • Multiple colleges located in the city, which provides an influx of young, talented people.

Cons:

  • City tax of 1.5%. Yuck. This is applicable to residents of the city. Non-residents who work in the city are taxed at ½ that rate.
  • Far from family. GR is approximately 1.5 hours from most of my family; however it’s close to my oldest sister who lives along Lake Michigan. Ann Arbor, on the other hand, is approximately an hour and ten minutes from most of my family, but further away from my oldest sister. Most of my family lives in very rural areas.
  • A car is necessary. Though it’s possible to get around the downtown area without a car with no problem, GR is spread out. In addition, I moved back to Michigan to spend time with family more often. So if I didn’t own a car I’d have to rent one so often that it would be cost-prohibitive. My 2006 Corolla would be far cheaper to just keep than try to get around by bike, foot, and bus, and then finagle a way to see family. But this con is probably unfair as it’s applicable to just about anywhere in Michigan.
  • Crime. From a number of sources I’ve used, Grand Rapids is significantly more dangerous than Ann Arbor. You can view Grand Rapids and Ann Arbor crime stats using information supplied from city-data.com. You’ll notice that GR sees about four times as much violent crime as A2. Of course, it seems that the majority of this crime is concentrated in one particular area of the city, south and west of downtown. In my opinion, this is a major drawback.
  • Sprawl. Though the center of the city, which includes the downtown core, is fairly dense, much of the city is sprawled out across more than 40 square miles.
  • Grand Rapids experiences a strong dose of lake-effect snow, as it’s located approximately 80 miles to the east of Lake Michigan. GR averages almost 75 inches of snow per year, compared to approximately 58 inches for Ann Arbor.

I personally think the pros outweigh the cons, but the city income tax is a bummer. However, the cost of living adjustment compared to Ann Arbor would more than compensate for this, at least until my income rises significantly. The crime rate is kind of shocking, though. But I think, as in any city, being aware of your surroundings goes a long way. I grew up in a pretty rough area of Detroit, so I’m familiar with avoiding trouble.

I hope to put a similar article on Ann Arbor together at some point in the future, but I have to find time to spend 5-6 hours around the city exploring and taking pictures.

What do you think of Grand Rapids? Seem like a nice place to live? For anyone who lives in the area, was my description accurate?

Thanks for reading.

Photo Credits: Moi

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72 Comments

  1. DM,

    One of our co-workers in another office just moved from Grand Rapids to the Cleveland office. He said you have some pretty good Burger places – would you be able to agree?

    GR looks a lot of what Cleveland is – a lot of great things happening, free activities, plenty of history and sight seeing yet – not many know about it. I think you had a pretty sweet weekend and looks like you can spend multiple weekends there just figuring more and more out about the city.

    Nice job with the frugal weekend and being able to catch up with a like minded blogger in Kipp. It’s always nice having someone you can bounce ideas, goals and philosophies off of. That’s the best part about the diplomats – having Bert work with me through the journey is awesome.

    Hope the week turns out well for ya DM, talk soon!

    -Lanny

  2. Nice!! I love Grand Rapids personally, was able to live there for a bit (and meet my wife there). I’m hoping one day to be able to move back there!

    Glad you enjoyed it 🙂

  3. DM,

    Grand Rapids looks like an amazing city. I am glad you had a fantastic trip. My wife and I are heading up to Cedar Falls, Iowa next month to visit her sister and her husband. By the end of August I will definitely be ready to escape the Houston heat for a nice cool week in the Midwest. It sounds like you are having a summer to remember. You should feel blessed, as it is difficult, once you become an adult to remember a specific summer in your life. I have a feeling 2014 won’t be easily forgotten for you.

    MDP

  4. you missed the quieter East Grand Rapids area. Home of Wolfgang’s for breakfast and Harmony brewing. Founders completes the triangle between E GR and downtown. Its a world class micro brew that should not be skipped next time. GR is a great city and cheaper than AA, but AA is also really nice. We always make time for Zingerman’s bread and coffee when near (within an hour’s ride). YUM!

    How could you skip visiting Holland? Its home to the annual tulip fest (hint hint) and has a really enjoyable small town feel yet busy downtown that really draws you in with its many eateries and micro brews. The beach is amazing. Winters, yes, are long but it keeps you frugal!

    Grand Haven had Coast Guard fest this weekend and Ludington has the best park in the world. Yes, the world.

    cheers to Michigan!
    t

  5. DD,

    I’ve never been, but I hear Stella’s has great burgers. I think they won a GQ contest at one point for their burgers. The next time I’m in GR I’ll check out Stella’s and report back. 🙂

    Yeah, I imagine GR is probably a smaller-scale Cleveland. There’s a lot of investment going on, and I seen at least three major projects underway downtown. Really awesome to see a city in Michigan thriving like that.

    And it was great meeting up with Kipp. I felt rushed at the end because I thought I was going to get a parking ticket, but it was a great conversation.

    Hope all is well down there in Cleveland!

    Cheers.

  6. Sean,

    Glad you met your wife here! I suppose in that regard it will always be a special place for you two. 🙂

    It’s definitely a great town. I used to work in GR back in 2007, so I already knew a bit about the city. But it has definitely changed a lot in the last seven years.

    Best wishes!

  7. MDP,

    This summer has been amazing. I was just talking to my sister about that. I moved back, we’ve had multiple trips out on my parent’s pontoon boat, my little niece was born, we had a 4th of July Tigers game, this past weekend in GR (which included a baseball game), and we still have a family trip to Cedar Point planned, as well as the Renaissance Festival. Oh, and I’m coming back to GR in about a month for ArtPrize. So much going on. It’s definitely a memorable summer.

    I hope you guys have fun in Cedar Falls. There’s a lot of really great cities in the Midwest that people don’t talk about. Time to represent! 🙂

    Best regards.

  8. tuliptown,

    Thanks for adding all that!

    I actually got off US-131 at the Wealthy exit, so I drove by Founders and the Rapid station. I looped back around to get a good feel for that area of downtown. Really beautiful out on that side. I didn’t go in Founders because I don’t drink beer and I was trying to keep the costs of this visit down, but I hear it’s a great brewery. And speaking of Zingerman’s, that’s the place I’ll eat at when I do my report on Ann Arbor. I hope to get a post on that city done within the next month.

    I didn’t have time to visit Holland because I only had a few hours to spare in GR. I had already scheduled myself in to spend time with my sister, and she lives just outside Muskegon. But I’ve been to Holland before. Nice town. I went to the Grand Haven Coast Guard event a number of years ago. It was hot and really crowded, so I probably didn’t enjoy it as much as I should have. They have a great little downtown there. I love Kirby’s there. Good food, especially upstairs.

    Michigan has some cool things going on. I think GR is just a great city, and really affordable. Probably doesn’t match the “cool” factor of A2, but the cost of living is a lot less.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Best wishes.

  9. Great post. The photos make the article come alive. Grand Rapids seem like a nice place to live. I think it might be better than Detroit. Who knows, there could be plenty of opportunities there!

    Cheers.

  10. Hey DM,
    $60,000 for a single family starter home is very cheap compared to my state (Massachusetts). I haven’t done my research on Grand Rapids but it looks like a great place to live. The one question I had was if there are plenty of jobs in Grand Rapids? I know Detroit is a disaster but wasn’t sure if that had any effect on other cities close by. Thanks for sharing this article. I hope to see some other cities you visit in the future!

  11. Henry,

    In my opinion, it’s not even a comparison to Detroit. I grew up in Detroit and have spent considerable time in and around the city since then. I mean no offense to anyone who lives there, but it’s just decaying beyond belief. GR, on the other hand, has no visible signs of that type of decay. But the two cities are just apples and oranges in so many ways. I just personally would never want to live in Detroit.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Cheers.

  12. Mongrel,

    I used to work in Grand Rapids back about seven years ago, before I moved to Florida. At the time, it was doing much better than the Detroit area. I’m not sure if that’s still true, but I can’t imagine how it’s not. I was in Detroit just recently for a Tigers game, and it was really bad. The downtown area had almost nobody around. It was like a ghost town. Conversely, there were people everywhere in GR. I do know the medical and construction industries are really booming in GR right now.

    I hope to put a post like this together on Ann Arbor soon to compare the two cities, so it’ll be cool to see the differences come alive via the pictures.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Take care.

  13. Grand Rapids looks like a nice city to visit. Not sure I could live in Michigan though because I don’t think I would last one winter having been in California all my life. 🙂 Thanks for sharing photos of your visit, I definitely would consider exploring the GR the next time I’m on the east coast. So far the closest I’ve come is Indianapolis. AFFJ

  14. AFFJ,

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Ha. I hear you on the winter weather. It’s not fun. I’m not totally looking forward to my first full winter in five years, but I suppose a change of pace is nice. I’ll probably be tired of it two or three weeks in, though. 🙂

    Indy is a nice town as well. I’ve got a friend who lives down that way and I’ve been there a couple of times.

    Never made it out to California. The furthest West I’ve been is Vegas. I may make it to California someday.

    Cheers!

  15. Good times! You see?!? You are experiencing a great deal of serendipity already, which is very hard to experience if you’re locked in a terrible 9-5 job.

    I think it’s natural for folks like us to feel that level of awe with cities like Grand Rapids. I think it’s due to the fact that there’s so much going on there.

    You keep juggling my memory about my good times in Michigan back in 2000. I did a summer internship at MSU, made some good friends there. We used to take these awesome road trips all over the state. Michigan is fantastic in the summer.

    You have some very hard choices ahead, but they are very tantalizing choices. Take your time!

  16. A fantastic article, Jason! I can’t wait to read about the pros & cons of Ann Arbor or any place you might consider settling down to. Loved the pictures as well. I would imagine planning how to spend your FI time is almost as much fun as actually living it 🙂

  17. Spoonman,

    Exactly. It would have been impossible to have the time to do this if locked in a 9-5. “Oh, but you could have done it on Saturday.” Sure, if after 50 hours of work I have the energy to walk around a city for 4-5 hours, while also sacrificing the time that I was supposed to spend with my sister. It’s just so amazing what’s possible when you’re not grinding away. Really excited for you, as you’ll be moving on to much greener pastures pretty soon here. 🙂

    Appreciate all the support. And I do plan to take my time. I’m in no rush right now, as I’m really enjoying the time with my new little niece. But when the time comes I’ll know it, and I’ll have an exciting new city to discover.

    Best wishes!

  18. Investing Finn,

    Thanks so much. Glad you enjoyed the piece. This one took me quite a while to put together, so I’m glad it turned out well.

    And the process is awesome. It’s kind of like shopping for stocks. It’s almost more fun hunting down the bargains, looking at annual reports, and deciding between a couple of great investments then it might be to actually pull the trigger. The process is probably more fun than the result.

    Cheers!

  19. I passed through Grand Rapid a long time ago and thought it was a nice city. The higher crime rate is a little bit of a concern though, especially if you plan to walk around in the city. The long distance from the family is also a bummer..after all you did move back to Michigan from Florida to spend more time with the family. I’m be very curious to see what your decision is.

  20. Hey DM,

    I am from Grand Rapids, but now live in Sweden after a long stint in Egypt. But I do manage to get back every 2 or 3 years. I am actually going back this coming September to visit the family and introduce the newest member of our family to his home country! I left GR when I was 18, and every time I go back, I realise more and more how great the city actually is, its a shame I never new it until I left. But traveling the world and meeting my now Swedish wife has been a great trade-off. We are in the beginning stages of the FI journey and doing it in such a strong social welfare environment with high taxes is making it all the more of a battle. But there is one benefit with a unique investment account where there are no capital gains or dividend taxes, but a flat yearly tax rate based of the national interest rate, last year it was just under 0.5 percent. We can buy and sell stocks without triggering taxes. But anyway, hope you can make a sound decision with your city of choice, and if it is GR, hope you start some meet-ups there.

    Dustin

  21. Jason,

    Loved this post and all the pictures you took. Grand Rapids reminds me a lot of my hometown in Sioux Falls, SD. Seems like you’ve created some Midwest city nostalgia for the community! Now I need to buy you a GoPro and little mic when you do this sort of thing for an epic video diary! Hehe, very great writing, I felt like I was there 🙂

    Another thing I really enjoy about you is how you think so deeply about every decision you make. You’re weighing the investment of settling down geographically with as much thought, research, and reasoning as your freedom fund. You’re always looking so much further into the future than I think most people do. With your track record, I trust you’ll land where you’re suppose to. I can’t wait to read about it.

    Have fun writing this week and as always, thanks for it!
    ~Ryan

  22. Loved your lil tour there. That hotdog looks tasty. I love me a good hotdog. Too bad hotdogs are close to non exist in my town! Bastards!

    My favorite city to walk through ever??? TOKYO!!!! Barnone. Beats Paris, Rome as the ultimate mindtrip! Like you are on another planet out there!

  23. Looks like a pretty nice place to live. You’re very fortunate to be in a position to choose where you want to live and not be tied down by being near a place of employment. Personally I’d look to retire abroad with better weather and cheaper costs of living but if family are important to you then it’s worth paying a bit more to live nearby.

  24. After reading this blog post I was talking to a friend who used to live there. But now moved to New York recently. When asked about GR area, he asked me not to think of buying any property there. This is completely what I imagined, especially after going through your blog. He said he didn’t like the town as it is not nice and perhaps that’s the reason why population of the place is declining. Is it true? The public transportation there he said is horrific. The worst thing he said is the conservative attitude of people there. Though I’m not sure why he dislikes Grand Rapids, I’ll ask you to verify these points too, preferably from your sister, as she currently lives there.

  25. Hey Jason,

    I just wanted to say thanks for meeting up with me, it was fun! I am glad that you enjoyed GR, but I think the key is to be near family. For me it works because the majority of my family lives North of GR with some in it. It still isn’t too far to goto for a major event such as art prize even if you live in Ann Arbor.

    Also thanks for the shout out!

    Kipp

  26. Grand Rapids does have public transit within the city itself, but it would be nothing compared to Chicago or New York.

    Population within the City limits is down a bit from the year 2000, but the metro area has grown between the 2000 and 2010 census. You have to remember that Michigan is very heavily weighted in the auto industry and there has been an exodus of manufacturing jobs here basically since after NAFTA. As a result people move, but now things are turning around, Grand Rapids is building towards the health care industry and is faring much better than Detroit in my opinion.

    Conservative attitude… maybe not so much right in Grand Rapids, but the rural areas, definitely. I would argue that it is a mix, you have some hardcore democrats, some hardcore republicans, but probably more people that are somewhere in-between like most cities.

  27. Sounds like the Wings should just moved to GR, the arena is only a little smaller. The Wings have been having trouble signing and keeping new players, because many are simply afraid of what Detroit as become. Hearing from my MI friends, they have good things to say about both, but especially A2. Either way those prices are awesome. Getting a SFH home where I live is an easy 500K, and that is for the ones built in the 40s.

    Both sound reasonable, so looks like you don’t have to choose between the lesser of 2 evils.

    – Gremlin

  28. Thanks for the photos of Grand Rapids, it looks like a nice city! My wife recently had a great job opportunity in Ann Arbor but we decided to stay close to our family and remain in our home state of North Dakota. Our booming economy makes it pretty tough to leave right now, even with the long and brutal winters. I am a big fan of Wolverine basketball so I admit it was tempting for a minute haha. I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your next visit to Ann Arbor. Take care!

  29. Grand Rapids is a beautiful city.
    I think Ann Arbor would be a better choice for you though, given you mentioned you have a new niece in that area. Making a 1-1/2 hour drive to see Uncle Jason may be too big of a deterrent for you to be an active part of her life. On the same note, it’s an expensive drive for you to make over and over again to spend time with your family.

  30. My vote is Florida! You can always catch a plane and visit the folks for one month or so per year. I would take a few years before making a decision of this caliber. If I were to stay in Michigan I would find the best deal on a house and let finances set your plan. Moving to the city has little benefit if you are going to keep your car. Find the best deal 30min to an hour away from family is the thing to do IMO. GL

  31. Tawcan,

    I agree. The crime is a bummer, but the good news is that, like most cities, it’s generally concentrated in a few pockets. Being aware of those pockets and avoiding them is the key.

    The distance away from family does suck. I’m not sure how to really get around this. My family lives in very rural areas. Think towns of 1,000 people. If I were interested in living in a rural area this situation would be perfect. But I’m not into country living, so it’s sometimes tough to fit in. Of course, I could live here and then drive to the city on weekends or something to have fun. We’ll see. Anything is possible, which is exciting! 🙂

    Thanks for stopping by. Appreciate the perspective!

    Cheers.

  32. MSM,

    Hey, great to hear from someone who’s lived here. Very cool that you’re now living in Sweden! Sweden seems absolutely beautiful. I’d love to visit most of Northern Europe at some point in time.

    I can imagine that living somewhere with a much higher taxes makes the climb more difficult, but at least if you fall you won’t fall far. Trade-offs to everything. Sounds like that unique investment account is very nice! I could open a Roth IRA and have the same benefit, but I haven’t yet.

    Enjoy Sweden. 🙂

    Best regards.

  33. Ryan,

    Midwest nostalgia. I think I’m experiencing that myself as I get the hang of living up here once again and see some of the great areas to live. I was always bound before by work, but now that I can live anywhere it’s exciting and overwhelming all at the same time. But I’m doing my best to logically think through the decision.

    I’m definitely someone that analyzes everything in my life, sometimes overly so. It’s a gift and a curse. It works well with investing, but sometimes it can be tough to turn my brain off. I have so many ideas, thoughts, visions, etc. It’s crazy sometimes.

    Appreciate the ongoing support. Keep up the great work over there with your journey!

    Best wishes.

  34. A-G,

    I also love a good hot dog. I missed Detroit-style Coney Dogs when I lived in Florida, so it’s nice to be up here where they take hot dogs seriously. 🙂

    Tokyo seems awesome. All the lights and the people. Must be crazy. I don’t know if I’ll ever be able to make it there, but I’d love to visit and have some sushi there. Sounds like you had a great time over there. I’m jealous! 🙂

    Thanks for stopping by.

    Cheers.

  35. austereseeker,

    Ha. Yeah, the city was actually incredibly busy. I wanted to capture the beauty of the city, and I was able to time the pictures just right. GR makes it easy to do this because a lot of the streets are pretty wide. It’ll be more difficult to do this in Ann Arbor because everything is more compact.

    Cheers!

  36. ERG,

    Yeah, I’m lucky that I don’t need to consider employment as far as where to live. However, that’s something that is in the back of my mind, just in case writing doesn’t work out. I’m only a couple of months into this, so there’s no guarantee that it will continue to work out. So I would prefer to live somewhere that had ample opportunity in case I need to take advantage of that.

    I wouldn’t mind at all living abroad. In fact, I think retiring early to Thailand sounds fantastic. Great weather, friendly people, cheap cost of living, fantastic food, beautiful beaches. But the timing isn’t good right now. I’m really enjoying seeing my family again after living out of state for the last five years, and I love spending time with my beautiful niece. But that could be a possibility a decade or so from now. We’ll see. The visa issues seem like a headache, though.

    Take care!

  37. Alissa,

    Well, GR is no New York. Apples and oranges. As Kipp pointed out, GR holds its own for a city of its size, but cannot be compared to a world-class city like New York.

    I’ve looked into the public transportation there, and it seems pretty solid within the city. Getting to other parts of Michigan would be extremely difficult, however. You have to remember that Michigan was the epicenter of auto manufacturing. We’ve got freeways named after auto manufacturers (Chrysler Freeway, Ford Freeway), and so public transportation was never taken seriously here. That’s changing now, but Michigan will likely never be what it could have been had cars not always been the preferred way to travel.

    As far as population goes, the population in 2010 was 188,040. The 2013 estimate is 192,294. However, that’s not really the ultimate barometer for success, in my opinion. I think GR already has a healthy population. I’d much rather live in a city where I can stretch out a bit than a city like New York where there’s people everywhere. But that’s just me.

    But a city like GR isn’t for everyone, much like the Midwest isn’t for everyone. There are pros and cons to everything. I personally wouldn’t want to live in New York, but I can also see why some people wouldn’t want to live in GR.

    Cheers!

  38. Kipp,

    Thanks! It was good meeting up with you too! Wish we had more time. I was worried there at the end about getting a parking ticket.

    I agree with you on family. The problem, however, is being near family would require me to live in a very rural area. But I’m more of a city guy. I feel alive in a place like GR or A2. It would be much more frugal to live in a small town around here, but it’s tough to see myself here. Who knows. Maybe I’ll do a Destination: Durand or something. 🙂

    Ann Arbor seems great too, but you have to remember it’s not close to family either. It’s a good hour and 15 minutes away from family. GR is about an hour and a half. So there’s a 15 minute spread there. I don’t think that would make or break my decision either way. And Ann Arbor is along the US-23 corridor, which is notorious for traffic jams. I-96 to I-69, on the other hand, is pretty easy.

    Best regards!

  39. Gremlin,

    I love going to a Wings game. Haven’t been in a number of years. The only issue is the cost. It’s like $50 just to get in the building, then there’s parking, food, and gas to get there and back. It’s tough. Meanwhile, you can sit almost on the ice for about $20 at a Griffins game. And the food is a lot cheaper. I think on Thursdays they have $2 beer and hot dogs. Solid deal. Plus, I try to avoid Detroit whenever and wherever I can.

    Those are expensive houses up your way. That’s unfortunate, but I suppose that’s probably because it’s a great area and everyone wants to live over there. Supply and demand. 🙂

    And you’re right in that both cities are very nice. Definitely not the lesser of two evils.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Best regards.

  40. Josh,

    I hear North Dakota is just going gangbusters. Can’t blame you for staying, especially if that’s home for you guys. I loved living in Florida, but Michigan is “home” for me, where my family lives, where I grew up, where my best friend lives, and where a good chunk of my memories come from. 🙂

    Sounds like you guys made the right decision!

    Best wishes.

  41. jcurtiswebb,

    Great points there. I’m not sure, however, that Ann Arbor would be any better with a similar commute (about 15-20 minutes closer) back to my family. The one good thing about Ann Arbor is that my best friend works in the area. So we’d be able to hang out more often. That’s a great reason to live there.

    I think if I really want to be close to family I’ll have no choice but to live in a rural area. Perhaps I’ll do a third article in this series highlighting a nearby town to compare with my GR and A2 choices. That would encompass everything.

    Thanks for the the thoughts!

    Take care.

  42. Monty,

    Haha. I should move back to Florida, huh? I loved living down there, but the trips back were too much. And I wasn’t seeing everyone as much as I would have liked to. It’s one thing driving an hour or more to see family. It’s quite another to fly across the country with layovers in Atlanta. But I do love Florida, and I miss it there. I think FL is a great option for those seeking FI. The lack of state income taxes and ease of using public transportation in warm weather make it a great choice.

    I hear you on moving to the city. It would be tough to get rid of the car anywhere up here. The city would be more of a lifestyle choice, whereas living near family in a rural setting would probably be more of a financial one. Though, GR is pretty comparable in costs to anywhere around here. I could move about 45 minutes away to a small city called Brighton. It’s between A2 and my family, and has a nice little downtown. But the costs are on par with Ann Arbor. So you get the costs, but few of the benefits.

    I could go through these pros and cons all day, haha!

    I think if I let finances make my choice then it would either be GR or very close to family. We’ll see. It’s fun to go through the options.

    Thanks for the thoughts.

    Cheers!

  43. If the cost was the same, would you lean toward AA or GR?

    I think that gives you your first answer.

    Then , you have to answer the second question. If AA, then is it worth the extra cos

  44. I think it’s significantly less expensive than ‘Stachetown USA’ where I live (Longmont, CO) along with fellow blogger Mr. Money Mustache. However, the weather is significantly better than the Midwest in my opinion, people are healthier, more liberal (which I find to be a good thing). I really love it here! Tickets from Denver to Minneapolis go as low as $40 which makes trips for family easy ( and they do visit!).

    With the limited knowledge I have my opinion is that Ann Arbor is a nicer place to live. I saw an article in Kiplinger magazine this month that listed it as a good place to retire in part because it was a vibrant college town.

    Thanks,
    Wallet Engineer #1

  45. Ravi,

    Hmm, that’s a great question there. I don’t know if it’s easy to answer. They’re such different cities in almost all aspects. I think GR has more to offer in terms of entertainment and everything else because it’s so much bigger, but it’s more spread out. Ann Arbor has a certain “vibe” or “energy” to it, probably due to the college scene. And it’s more dense. But I’ve worked and lived in A2, and it seems like the college scene is almost overwhelming because you have a lot of people that are kind of passing through for education. And a lot of the people who do live there permanently tend to be highly paid professionals, whereas GR has more of a blue collar feel/atmosphere to it. I think that’s at the root of the housing difference. Really different towns.

    I’m excited to put a post out on A2 and see how the pros/cons weigh out.

    Cheers!

  46. Lila,

    Thanks!

    The library was really impressive. They had a great selection of personal finance books, many with multiple copies. And it’s such a beautiful building. One thing I like about downtown is that many of the buildings just look good, and flow together really nicely. They mix the old and new together really beautifully.

    Best regards.

  47. WE #1,

    Colorado seems pretty beautiful. Although, from the numbers it looks like the weather isn’t a lot different from what we get here. Your January highs are higher, but the lows are the same. The snowfall is similar to what we get on the SE side, but your summers are a lot hotter. Overall, pretty similar.

    As far as healthy goes, that’s all an individual situation. I wouldn’t necessarily have to live somewhere that’s healthier. If I’m a couch potato, living in Colorado or Alaska won’t make a difference. But it does probably make it easier to find like-minded people to exercise with. And though Michigan typically leans conservative, Ann Arbor is extremely liberal. Grand Rapids is liberal in the city core, but rather conservative in the suburbs. Which is cool because then you get what you want.

    But Ann Arbor would probably be much more similar to Longmont than Grand Rapids based on what I know. More similar in size, political attitudes, and overall lifestyle.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Cheers.

  48. You really need to check out central America while you have a chance. Find a cheap flight to Guatemala and stay there a while then travel. Life is too short to not experience the world and other cultures. I stayed at the universal Spanish school for one month and its great. You can check them out online. They are located in Antigua Guatemala. One on one spanish lessons for 20 hours a week a room and food was only about $700 per month. Check them out online. It would be the best thing you ever did! You can live there cheaper than you currently live, especially if you didn’t want to do the Spanish lessons.

    http://www.universalspanishschool.com/uv/Prices/prices.htm

  49. I checked and it’s only $300 per month for a room and meals Monday-Friday. That means you could probably live on $500-$700 with trips and going to nice restaurants etc.

  50. Great pictures. It’ll be interesting to see the comparison post; when you’ve got them side by side it might help you with your decision. You’ve got some tough and exciting decisions to make!

  51. Monty,

    Thanks for the link. That’s pretty cool!

    I’ll most likely look into something like this once I’m financially independent and I’ve had some time with family. One of the reasons I moved back home was because I do have an interest in possibly living abroad at some point, and I’d feel incredibly bad/guilty/sad if I moved from Florida to somewhere overseas and didn’t get a lot of time with family in the meanwhile. To move from far to farther would really suck. So I’m soaking up the time with loved ones as much as possible now. I don’t know if I ever will live abroad, but if it’s in the cards I want to make sure I get time with family and friends until then.

    Cheers!

  52. Nicola,

    Thank you! I’m excited to do a similar exploration in Ann Arbor. I might do it this Friday while my mind and interest is still fresh on this subject. It would be most valuable to do the comparisons as close in time together as possible while I can still freshly remember the time I spent in GR.

    Thanks for stopping by!

    Take care.

  53. Hi Jason,

    I’ve been reading your blog for a few months now and really enjoy it. Just wanted to comment that I was a bit surprised by your distaste for GR’s 1.5% income tax, despite having just listed all the things the city proactively does to retain a high standard of living. Of course the revenue for most municipalities comes from sales taxes and property taxes, so it seems reasonable to consider those taxes in relation to the income tax and also compare to Ann Arbor. For example, maybe GR’s sales taxes and property taxes are relatively lower to make the income tax less burdensome. Granted I didn’t take the time to research these things myself, but I assume Ann Arbor’s higher housing costs are likely (at least partially) attributed to higher property taxes, which will also be reflected in renting cost. In any case, just wanted to point out that a comparison on taxes should probably take into account all three types, and also be weighed against the high standard of living that those taxes are used toward.

    Best Regards,
    Ryan

  54. Hi Ryan,

    Michigan has a state-wide sales tax of 6% and local municipalities do not have the authority to charge a sales tax in addition to the state rate. Their sources of revenue through taxation are property taxes, and only cities can add an income tax if it is voted in. Property taxes are based on value, so even if Ann Arbor has a slightly lower tax rate, chances are with a more expensive property you would still be paying more in property taxes. Just a quick search on paper it would appear that Ann Arbor has 4 less mills for property tax (or $4 less in taxes per 1/2 of assessed value), but in Michigan if the home is your primary residence you do not pay the school operating tax. That is 18 mills in GR while only 9 mills in Ann Arbor, so really you are paying 5 less mills (or $5 per 1,000) on your property tax. bsasoftware.com is an incredible source for property tax information in Michigan as they are the software that almost all municipalities use, and probably about 1/2 of the municipalities are free to look at.

    Kipp

  55. How cool that you got to meet Kipp for lunch! You really scored on the parking front, I’ll say. I’ve only been in Michigan once as a teenager when we drove through Detroit on way from London, Ontario down to Florida. Not our usual route but we were picking up my aunt who had graduated from the Ontario Police College. Currently, the radio station I listen to here in Ontario is full of ads with Tim Allen encouraging folks to go on vacation there. I’m a country not a city person, but I must say as far as cities go, Grand Rapids would be my preferred size – not too big. Looking forward to your Ann Arbor post.

  56. Scott,

    Haha!

    It’s funny, sometimes I wonder if I should try to like beer more. But then I look at the price tag and realize I’m probably best off as I am now. I know beer isn’t super expensive, but I suppose I already deal with desires in food, specifically sushi. So one less desire in my life, especially for something I don’t currently enjoy, isn’t a bad thing. I’m not opposed to trying beer in the future, but I’ve never had any that I liked. Maybe I just don’t have the taste buds for it.

    Cheers!

  57. Ryan,

    Let me preface my comment with this: I’m all for taxes, assuming the quality of life improvement is commensurate. I think of taxes logically. And if you look around the world at the countries with the highest qualities of life you’ll generally find some of the highest tax rates. So that goes for Canada, many countries in Northern Europe, and Australia. The US is actually not a bad place to live if you’re looking for attractive tax rates, especially if you’re an investor. Of course, I’ve discussed all that ad nauseam.

    I think Kipp already went over the tax fundamentals, so I’ll give you my experience instead. Grand Rapids was actually set to regress the tax rate from 1.5% to 1.3%. The city passed a temporary five-year plan to raise the city income tax from 1.3% to 1.5% back in 2010. The city recently voted to keep this rate past 2015 to fix their roads. The problem is that the city has been collecting this additional income for years already and quite literally has some of the worst roads I’ve ever seen in my entire life. In fact, I discussed this with Kipp at our lunch. I was shocked (so was my car) at how bad the roads are.

    Some of these articles can shed some light on the problem in GR:

    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2014/02/got_potholes_mayor_george_hear.html
    http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2013/02/income-tax_hike_eyed_to_fix_gr.html

    Meanwhile, Ann Arbor doesn’t have a city tax and has great roads. They’re not comparable to roads in Florida, but they’re nothing like what I saw in GR. So when you talk about collecting a tax to raise the quality of life, I don’t think GR has done all that well here. In fact, one could argue that the quality of life would actually be better in Ann Arbor with better roads, lower crime, and lower taxes. Real estate is a separate issue because a lot of that is supply and demand, not just property taxes. Rentals in Ann Arbor tend to be expensive because many students want to live off-campus. That sucks up the limited supply. And housing is expensive simply because everyone wants to live there. I’ll go over that in upcoming A2 article.

    That’s just my take on it. I think GR is a fantastic city with lots of entertainment options. But a lot of the improvements in Grand Rapids over the past 10-15 years have come from private funding, not the city income tax. Look at the names across the city on many of the recent structures: Devos and Van Andel. There’s a reason for that.

    I’m not saying I know all there is to know about GR’s finances, their tax base, and how the city goes about doing what it does. But looking at the two cities tells me that there’s more at play. GR benefits greatly from private funding from the DeVos, Van Andel, and Meijer families. Ann Arbor benefits from the University.

    Cheers!

  58. Debs,

    Haha. Love those Tim Allen Pure Michigan ads. I remember watching them down in Florida and feeling like Michigan was taunting me, begging me to come back. I guess it worked. Damn you, Tim Allen! 🙂

    Thanks for stopping by.

    Best wishes.

  59. Jason,

    It is good to know they are actually playing those ads outside of the state… I don’t know why they put up billboards and play it on radios inside our state… those people they are advertising to are already here!

    Kipp

  60. Jason,
    Late to the post but wanted to say hello. I’ve been following your blog for a couple months now. Your story is inspiring along with your blog. I will be moving back to the greater Grand Rapids area in about 10 days via Germany and Utah. Recently medically discharged from the military. Born and raised in Grand Rapids 40 years ago. It looks a lot better than when I left in 1992. I’m going to finish my degree at Davenport University and go from there. Maybe we will bump into each other one of these days.
    All the best and I love dividends,
    Chris

  61. Chris,

    Hey, glad to hear you’re moving back to the GR area. I think it has a lot to offer.

    I last worked in GR back in 2008 and it’s changed so much even since just then. I walked around the downtown area and seen projects everywhere. The biggest project I noticed was the huge building going up next to the Van Andel, which is trying to create a district around the arena with apartments, businesses, and new restaurants. Looks pretty cool.

    I’m sure you’ll love it out there!

    Take care.

  62. Chuck,

    Wow, that’s pretty disappointing. Though, I wonder how that all works out in real life. I’ve lived in or been to a number of areas on that list, and the expanding poverty wasn’t really visible to me. And you know what they say about statistics…

    Of course, Michigan was hit pretty hard by the loss of jobs in the auto industry and broad manufacturing. So you have this move to the healthcare, technology, and service industries. It takes time to make these changes.

    But I drove through some of the rough areas inside the city of GR, and I won’t deny they looked pretty bad. And the crime rate shows that GR is above the national average by a pretty wide margin. In my opinion, that’s probably one of the biggest bummers about the city, because it’s otherwise a wonderful city and really beautiful.

    I plan on spending about six hours in Ann Arbor tomorrow and taking pictures, so I hope to put out the comparison pretty quickly. 🙂

    Best regards.

  63. DM that city looks way cleaner than my closest city (Cleveland). Your point is a good positive one all of us rust belters are hoping for. Our area (MI/OH) is one of the fastest growing areas for technology and healthcare. It will take time but all cities go through cycles.

  64. DFG,

    Well, to be fair I took shots of the best places. It’s easy to spin things the way you want them. Though, I can’t say how it compares to Cleveland because I’ve never been there. But I found GR to be a pretty clean city. I didn’t see any trash or anything throughout the entire downtown area. But if you go south or west of downtown you run into some areas that you probably wouldn’t feel particularly comfortable in.

    And I agree this area is coming back. It takes time when you’re shifting 40-50 years of status quo into something different. But I have confidence that the change will happen! 🙂

    Cheers.

  65. Aw it looks like I missed my chance to vote for GR! I’ve lived in GR for 6 years and really like it. I actually did not know there was a significant crime rate. I personally have never felt threatened. But like you said it’s concentrated in one section of town. I live in eastown, actually right down the road from Yesterdog.

    I just started reading your blog a month ago. I just got promoted (I work at one of the library branches; was very happy to see you found our beautiful Main branch) so I finally have money to invest, and your blog has been very helpful in starting to think more seriously about it. One of these days I’m going to gorge on your archives. I’m looking forward to it! Thanks for your transparency. It’s refreshing and helpful.

    If A2 doesn’t work out, GR would love to have you!

  66. Vic,

    Hey, so glad to hear you received a promotion! Congratulations! 🙂

    And the downtown GR branch is beautiful. I really enjoyed it in there. Blows away A2’s downtown branch, in my opinion.

    I hear you on crime. I was actually quite shocked to see how badly GR ranked on pretty much every tool I could find. Though, I did at one point look at a room for rent north of medical mile on Michigan, and it was in a really rough neighborhood. So maybe it’s not just along Division, south of Wealthy. And I understand south of downtown and west of US-131 can be pretty rough too. But GR is a pretty big city. And most of it appears pretty safe to me. However, there are some areas I wouldn’t want to be jogging around at night. Conversely, I don’t think there are any areas in A2 that made me feel uncomfortable at all. Very different cities, though.

    I wish you the best of luck saving a little bit of that promotion cash and investing! Stay in touch. 🙂

    Best wishes.

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